Feb. 26, 2022

#103 - The Dream of Data with Steffen Hedebrandt, Branding with Jeff Clark and Making the Donuts over a Cocktail with Robert Rose Episode

#103 -  The Dream of Data with Steffen Hedebrandt, Branding with Jeff Clark and Making the Donuts over a Cocktail with Robert Rose Episode

This week we dive into Branding with Jeff Clark, Dreamdata CMO Steffen Hedebrandt is our guest and Robert Rose brings a thought about donuts to the Rockstar CMO virtual bar.

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This week our host Ian Truscott and Jeff Clark, former Research Director at SiriusDecisions/Forrester and sought after marketing strategy advisor continue the Five F'in' Marketing Fundamentals series, this week diving into branding or what kind of band do you want to be?

Ian interviews Steffen Hedebrandt, the Co-Founder and CMO at Dreamdata, a B2B revenue attribution platform, which enables algorithmic decision making in marketing and sales.

Steffen has a successful track record of scaling businesses and building teams, previously holding marketing and commercial leadership positions at Upwork and Airtame, as you’ll hear his startup and entrepreneurial experience means Steffen knows the pain points of rapidly scaling marketing and growth first hand. And aside from learning about Steffen's career, they geek out on the topic of measurement and attribution.

Ian then winds down the week with a man once described as a likeable Mark Ritson, his content marketing guru, Robert Rose, the Chief Trouble Maker at the Content Advisory and over a cocktail, Robert shares a thought about making the content donuts.



The people:

The mentions:

The music:


Previous episodes, show notes and transcripts are on Rockstar CMO FMand the podcast is available on all your favorite platforms, including Apple and Spotify.


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This transcript was automatically generated by a machine, and as it becomes sentient it may have its own ideas of what we said....

"I'm sorry Dave, I'm afraid I can't do that"


Ian Truscott  0:01  
being the sort of advisor you are Robert, mostly have broad shoulders that people can come and cry on.

Robert Rose  0:07  
A lot of I don't get a lot of calls going. I am so happy here

Ian Truscott  0:18  
Hello and welcome to episode 103 of Rockstar CMO, F M M Mr. Marketing and this is how you decide as you're probably wondering, does the world need another effing Marketing podcast? I'm your host Ian Truscott, and this weekly podcast is my excuse to chat with Marty friends old and new. I've met through my career from techie to cmo and hopefully share with you some marketing street noise that my guests and I have picked up along the way. Come say hello, we are rockstars to me on Twitter and LinkedIn and a proud member of the Marketing Podcast Network. This episode is recorded on Friday the 25th of February. I can't ignore the grim news here in Europe. I wish all our listeners with friends or family in Ukraine Well, I've worked with fantastic people from that country and the tragedy. And for everyone else, I hope this podcast provides a distraction from the news and you've had a good week and you're well safe and staying as sane as you feel you need to be. This week Jeff Clark and I will continue with a five FM marketing fundamentals. I checked my dream data.io cmo, Stephen the head of Brent about Mark measurement and his career and we wind down the week. Rockstar cmo virtual with Robert Rose for a cocktail and a marketing

but first we need to pay the bar tap I'll be back in a moment.

Right on to our first segment my charm Jeff Clark is a former research director at siriusdecisions Forrester and is a sought after marketing strategy advisor. And last week we kicked off the five effing marketing fundamentals. And this week, we dive into branding.

Jeff, welcome back to the Rockstar, cmo FM How are you mate?

Jeff Clark  2:19  
I am doing I'm doing well. I have to say I just came in from you know, shovelling a little over half a foot of snow and on a snowy Friday afternoon. But the Friday night is whiskey night here at the Clark house. So blended. Can't wait to move on.

Ian Truscott  2:40  
Well in it in, in this house, as we'll hear in a moment or in 20 minutes. It's it's gin and tonic night. And so I'm expecting because I'm doing all the recording today. So it would be it'd be Robert up next. And it's pizza movie night for us. It's Friday night. So yeah, that's that's yeah, that's how happy Friday so Happy Friday.

Jeff Clark  3:03  
Awfully Happy Friday to everybody out there. If you're listening to it on

Ian Truscott  3:08  
while those things are listed on Saturday when I spend the morning editing but Yeah, happy Saturday and happy next Friday. Feel

Jeff Clark  3:16  
free to enjoy this with a drink of your choice. I mean that some people enjoy cocktails some people like something a little Yeah.

Ian Truscott  3:25  
Who wouldn't? I think it's a great idea. All right, so Jeff, we started to see a new theories off last week. The five of us Yeah, I'm supposed to announce it the five fundamentals of marketing and we covered those five effing fundamentals of marketing and the first one was branding the second one was just referring to my notes, market research market research the third one was

Robert Rose  3:57  
like a storytelling I believe.

Ian Truscott  3:59  
But and also we gave him we were flogging these music analogies to me so branding defining the sound number two is market research the news and what what were being inspired by our audience then it was third one was communications and influences or the songwriter isn't the focus. And then the customer lifecycle the beat the rhythm section, being in harmony with our customers, if you remember that excellent. Yes, I made. And number five. I was not the operations, the producer, the crew and the remedies. I can take something right.

Jeff Clark  4:32  
Close To My Heart. So I just wanted to be a roadie.

Ian Truscott  4:35  
But also you specialise in marketing operations too. So you did roadie,

Jeff Clark  4:40  
yeah. You know, I had when I was in a band I used to cart by on equipment. So

Ian Truscott  4:46  
nice. Yes. Well, that was something we haven't shared with the audience yet that you were in a band and you are genuine Rockstar marketer.

Jeff Clark  4:52  
Yeah, yeah, I could. I could bring my guitar on a future show.

Ian Truscott  4:56  
That sounds great. What we should do right is well I mean, then we'd be bereft of your musical choices when we said,

Jeff Clark  5:06  
it would be my choice, it

Ian Truscott  5:09  
would save me any anxiety about licencing and being sued if you played the tune, that'd be great. Anyway, let's carry on. So this first one, we're going to talk about branding. So What say you, Jeff, where do we start?

Jeff Clark  5:25  
Where do we start? Well, you know, as as, as we were doing our rock music analogies is, you know, branding is about defining the sound and, you know, it kind of starts with the answer the question, so who, who are we, by the way, you know, yeah, and, and, I mean, I always like to say, that, you know, a brand is, you know, a name and potentially your logo, or, you know, graphic element that's associated with an attribute. And, until, until a customer or somebody gets to know you intimately, it's just, it's really that simple. Because, you know, people can only and this isn't saying better on people, but it's like, they only keep so many things in their head. And, and, you know, they're, you're, they're only thinking about buying things in a certain market, you know, until it's that time. So until it's their time to, you know, do their research, we get on their journey. It's, that's it, it's like, you know, I know, IBM, IBM, whatever your stable technology company, I know, you know, so and so red, hot, whatever, you know, and, and one of the interesting, I don't, one of the discussions I've had through my career with with a lot of colleagues is that, you know, oftentimes, when you get into branding, people just immediately go to the consumer brands, you know, the apples in the, and, yeah, so one of the differences always had to, like, help to define is that you're in business consumer, the brand is important for the product, as well as the company. And so you get in, particularly if you get very large, you know, like a, like a Procter and Gamble or craft or something where they've got lots of different products out there. And I was, at a party had a just a really insightful discussion with the guy who worked for Kraft, and he talked about how, you know, sometimes we put Kraft on the brand, you know, like craft whatever cheese, and sometimes we hide it, or we say, you know, it's such and such a product, and it's by craft, and then sometimes we leave craft totally off the labelling, because we don't want people to know, and you know, like, when you see, like, Coke comes up with Dasani water or something like that. They don't want anyone to know that that product is made by Coca Cola, right. But in business to business, it's really people by you know, it's companies buying from companies. And, and so, you know, products are best, you know, left to be more descriptive, you know, Amazon Web Services, Oracle analytics or something like that. Like, you really don't want to put too much emphasis on the product you want to be focused on? Who is the you know, who who's the company, what's the value of the company. And again, if you're going back to that, if it's the simple formula is it's the brand name and an attribute, you just you, that's what you're focused on. And it's not that some of these companies have lots of products and lots of things they do. But you know, you want to make sure from a brand perspective that you're really focused on being consistent at that company brand level.

Ian Truscott  8:31  
Right. So so you're talking now about atrophy, which I think's interesting. So that's, you know, that's key, isn't it? That's the key. I mean, last week, we were joking about being a punk band, whatever we were right. So yeah, that is that is that the attribute is that we are, you know, we're describing ourselves as the the, the ad network, the rock star, CMO, punk band, and we're glad to find that sound through those attributes. So what do you what do you mean by by actors? What sort of attributes? Well,

Jeff Clark  9:01  
you know, it's, it's, um, I mean, there's, there's a couple things, is it as much to try to, to roll it up to something that's fairly simple. I mean, I think there are some characteristics that that, that, you know, that are important here. So one is you just, you're trying to say, you know, where are we relative to competition? You know, are we the innovative company? Are we the secure low risk solution? Are we the low cost, you know, tend to be the low cost provider. And, and you're really from a again, from a brand perspective for the for the people that aren't gonna like before they delve into you. It's got it can't be multiple things. You've you've got to focus you got to put your your focus on one one of those attributes. And it really should, it should really tie into whatever your unique value proposition is, you know, if you're the challenger in a market, you've got to define what what kind of challenge your positioning is, is important for you to differentiate from some of the big gorillas in the market, you know? Or am I the second best alternative or even I'm kind of like the big guy, but I'm, you know, just a little bit cheap. And those are. So that's really important to define. And it has to be authentic. And it's kind of like discussion. Yeah, like, you know, you can't be a punk band. If you're not a punk, you know, you can't be a new wave band. If you're not trying to innovate and push the envelope a little bit. You can't, you know,

Ian Truscott  10:30  
Yeah, but you're also saying here that this is how you define yourself, the the attributes and characteristics of how you define yourself in your category. So we're not just a punk band, we are the punk band with three guitars, or we're the, you know,

Jeff Clark  10:47  
the loudest punk band or whatever we're though. Yeah, we do disgusting things on stage.

Ian Truscott  10:54  
I really shouldn't have started down the punk boundary, we should. Your new wave idea was much better.

Jeff Clark  11:00  
I was yes, I Yeah. In that period of time, I was like, tilted more or the new ways.

Ian Truscott  11:07  
But you're saying exactly what you're saying. So to be authentic, we have to live and breathe our punk Enos. Right. But absolutely. But we then stuck with that, is that I mean, because organisations evolve, we change the product. Yeah, we get into creating stuff. So no, what do you see in that,

Jeff Clark  11:23  
I mean, brand brands need to, they need to evolve over time. And obviously, I mean, there, there are things, this is one of the when we get into market research, this is where this will really come up. Because, you know, you and your offerings are going to evolve your customer and their needs, and how they express them are going to evolve. And so you know, it, your brand will evolve. And it's just, it's important to do that as a conscious choice of a transition. So, so again, you I mean, you don't want to just like, you know, hypothesise that you know, it's like, and, and certainly I was I mean, when I was at progress software, I mean, Progress had had, you know, grown up in kind of an era of when development tools, databases, were just starting to get going. And they were, they were high reliability, high, you know, functioning, setup tools, but you know, when you get into the 2000s, now, all of a sudden, it's like, oh, that's the old stuff, you know, and all these other new things are coming on. And so it's like, okay, we've got to evolve and our product, the products evolve, but the reputation has evolved. So how do we actually do the research to understand how we can, you know, build a new, you know, sort of a new image or new brand? That is actually, again, it's authentic? And, and then make sure we're, we're doing what we need to do, you know, whether it's changing the logo, the colours, you know, all the frilly stuff. Yeah. Like, what really is more important is to change how you talk about yourself. And I think you and I have talked about, we've been in too many companies, where it's like, the rebranding is just let's just focus on the on the colours of the logo. It's more important is about how you're talking to your customer, what you're saying about yourself. And I think one of the challenges becomes, and this was certainly a challenge, when I was a progress is when you get to be a larger Multi Product company, you know, you've acquired, yeah, products, you've acquire your built new products that aren't necessarily in the category you started in, then you need to be again, you got if thinking at the company level, you got to be thinking about what what am I saying that's new and different about the company. And I may also have some, you know, acquired, yeah, brands, or I've created something that needs to be different. And so it almost needs to be part of a different, you know, whatever division, business unit that that has, its has its own brand. And, you know, a great example of this is like when IBM acquired Red Hat, I mean, so IBM is the more stay trusted. Ever, you never make a bad decision with IBM, although some people did. You get red hat that's all about open source and being absolutely innovative. And it's one of those companies that they decided not to kind of fold into, yeah, they have a lot of acquired products that they just kind of folded into an IBM stack. Red Hat exists, they're out on its own. You know, and still, you know, it's an IBM company, but you don't you don't necessarily associate that with the IBM brand.

Ian Truscott  14:31  
Yeah, I don't think that's that's that's a great point. Now, of course, when you're talking about brand there, we're not talking just about the colours and stuff. We're talking about how we talk but also about how people we how we want people to talk about us, right? And like definition of the brand being the thing that people say when you're not in the room. And I think that's an I think that that Red Hat IBM thing. Example is really good because I didn't think of Red Hat as an IBM company. And yet, how long have they been an IBM company?

Jeff Clark  14:58  
10 years or so? Yeah, exactly. So

Ian Truscott  14:59  
I think I think you make a really good point that, and also that one of the fears there about brands transitioning and changing the message is I think a lot of marketers don't aren't in it for the long haul sometimes. And they keep changing every sort of three months or a year or something like that. How do you balance that? Because how do you define a brand that says to yourself, well, this is what I'm going to be? And I'm still going to be this in two years time?

Jeff Clark  15:27  
I think. So, one, I'm just going to, you know, affirm what you said, because I think that's too often marketers are, I don't know, it's like, and this is true with campaigns through all kinds of things. It's like we, we get tired of things before the market, or the company, customers get tired of them. Yeah. And, and so it's like, we keep wanting to push on to something new. But I think this is this is where measuring the effectiveness of your brand, and doing the market research, you know, so that guess the measuring the effectiveness would be more of your first party research, but you need to do third party research to understand how the, how the market you are serving change is changing. And, and, and, you know, frankly, I mean, that's my experience is the companies don't do enough of this. And it's not, it's not particularly easy to do, but you but I think what's important is to understand the brand is not just, you know, name recognition. And it's like, Oh, if you think about whatever, you know, open source tools, who do you think of it is? There's an there is an element of the awareness, which is certainly true? Or what's the reach of your awareness? You know, how far different audiences there's the perception. So what do people associate you with the and particularly two things? What market do they associate you being in? And what attributes do they associate with you? And so seeing how those are evolving? I mean, you can you can, that's where you can see the baby, the perception is not changing with the reality that you see as you're providing to the market. And then, and then the, the other major set of sort of brand metrics is preference. So, you know, will customers buy from me again? Will they be a reference for me? Will they advocate for me? And all three of these things, awareness, perception, preferences are things. I mean, typical, the old brand surveys were, you know, whether it's focus groups, or phone surveys, or whatever, where you go to large numbers of people, and you try to get this information. But there's lots of ways that you can you particularly with social tracking, and social media, and looking at metrics, you know, I know, one of the comments, you know, you've made before, as you know, I mean, the improving your brand improves the metrics of all of your other activities, you know, your, your, your pay per click statistics, your search to six. And so looking at some, you know, picking a couple of those key metrics and seeing how they evolve, or they're, they're evolving over time, maybe tracking them against things like revenue or your demand success gets, you know, that helps. That gives marketers the ability to make good decisions about how they're evolving the brand, right, those two bad decisions.

Ian Truscott  18:22  
Right, right. So just just pause for a second. So we're talking about measuring brand success, we're talking about measuring awareness, perception preference, and also like the, because last week was saying about how, you know, if you've been around for a while, as a band, you know, the crowd wants to hear your hits, not the new music. So this is what you're saying here, isn't it that you've got to listen and be very understand which of those hits your audience wants to hear? And how do you then transition them into your new music and get them thinking about that? Right, extending

Jeff Clark  18:56  
all the mechanics of a setlist?

Ian Truscott  19:00  
And then and then Then we moved a little bit into the why, I mean, why is this important? Why is it important that, that we that we do this?

Jeff Clark  19:08  
Well, I think so, you know, one we've kind of just touched on is that the brand is a multiplier for the effectiveness of other marketing and selling activities. And so, if your brand is degrading, if you will, not keeping pace with, with how you and the market are evolving, then then you're going to suffer and so again, it's important to understand where you are and do whatever is required to move change those perceptions about how you talk about yourself and how you talk to your customers. And frankly, it's just it's important for the whole company because every particularly every customer facing role in a company from Customer Service and Support and sales and a professional services what, you know, whatever anyone touching a customer is they're delivering an impression. And it's, it's just really important to make sure that, that it's consistent. And, and this is where, you know, I mean, it's so often it can go wrong and particularly in companies that that have evolved from acquisition, it becomes very complicated because you may have customers from the different product groups and what what how are you reinforcing the brand of the new collective company and we, I did I work with a company that optim that the story goes a few years back, but they, they had 600 different products, they had six different divisions, they, they have acquired a lot of different healthcare, not just insurance, but healthcare kind of delivery. And again, consulting, products technology. So give this very complex organisation that actually sits under United Healthcare, which is another gigantic organisation and, and their customers, and the salespeople, were telling the executives that they're just overwhelmed and confused, because the, because like, the, the different divisions we have, it's like, every time a new product came out, it's like, boom, new product, and here's what it does. And, and, and without any kind of consistence wrapper around who the company is what they're trying to do. Consistency communication, it's just like your, your, your, your degrading your effectiveness of everything you do. And that's what they found is when they kind of made the transition. And from a brand perspective, from an advertising from a from a Keven a campaign execution perspective, all of a sudden, they were able to get better results from less activity. Right. And so, I think it's really, that's really important. It's also, I mean, one of the other things that that, you know, experiences I had is that when I was at, at progress, and we were in again, we had this kind of traditional database and development platform, and at one point and acquired a bunch of companies. And at one point, we, we realised we actually had to define and rename this development platform. So what kind of saw was kind of an exception to the rule, but, and we labelled it open edge, and it was, it actually became kind of a, it actually made the, the, the division itself, you know, feel better about what it was doing. Because it's like, we have a new image, we're, you know, we're going forward with a kind of a different upgraded message to the, to the our audience, the customers liked it, it's like it was it seemed like kind of a natural evolution of where that particular product line, which was a the lion's share of the, the revenue for the company. So it's, um, so that's where it kind of can have an internal kind of a boosting and motivational effect, as well as simplifying the message and, and improving or updating the message to the customer.

Ian Truscott  23:10  
Yes, absolutely, and awful. And so, I think that I think it's in the why is important, because like you were saying the having a good brand multiplies your other marketing activities. I think that's a very good point. But also, I mean, it starts with the employees, isn't it, particularly when you're talking about highly acquisitive companies, getting people on boarded, and representing the brand and feeling the brand themselves amongst the internal communities important too. And then, and then that goes to your optimum story where everybody's just confused and overwhelmed. So if you don't get it, right, that's excellent. That's a really good kick off of branding and it's a huge topic to cover in 20 minutes or 21 minutes because we've done so far.

Jeff Clark  23:55  
We're gonna have to come back to different aspects. Yeah, in the near future.

Ian Truscott  23:59  
I think so. So this week, what song you're gonna go with

Jeff Clark  24:03  
I'm gonna go with a song called brand new day, obviously, it has the term brand and topic. And but it and you know, as is often one of the things that's a challenge in picking songs is he is someone who the songs are about love and relationships. And but this is about, you know, the sting wrote it was, you know, was trying to, as he says, turn the clock all the way back. I wonder if she would take me black back. I'm thinking in a brand new way. So he's like, trying to rebrand himself. And certainly, as a musician, I mean, there's one of the more successful I because I think he's still making some money guy who, you know, rebrand himself from the, you know, the face of a new wave band from the, you know, late 70s, early 80s. That was extremely successful. Then he kind of jumps into this kind of jazz New Agey. Yeah, Usually type guy and, you know, then certainly very talented but but certainly he'd made a conscious brand illusion.

Ian Truscott  25:10  
Yeah, yeah, no. And the interesting thing when you were because we do a little bit of prep show, when you when you suggested brand new day, I actually was working at a company in 1999 that rebranded. And when they announced the rebrand in the conference room, to the whole company underneath our seat stuck to the bottom of it was the CD brand new day busting. So amazing, coming full circle. Well, thank you very much, Jeff. And so next week, we will be going to our next of our five effing marketing fundamentals of

Jeff Clark  25:48  
whichever one was this one.

Ian Truscott  25:50  
The next news is out is that is how we fired that market research customer insights. So I look forward to that. And so I'll see you next week.

Jeff Clark  26:01  
Awesome. See, you then have a good week.

Ian Truscott  26:24  
Thank you, Jeff. And that was brand new day by sting from 1999. Let us know what you think of this new series. If you have suggestions, get in touch with a rockstar cmo on Twitter and LinkedIn, or email us at Hello at Rockstar cmo.com right onto my guest Stephen header. Brent is the co founder and cmo a dream data a b2b revenue attribution platform, which enables algorithmic decision making in marketing and sales. Stephen has a successful track record of scaling businesses and building teams previously holding marketing and commercial leadership positions Upwork and airtime. And as you'll hear his startup and entrepreneurial experience in Stephen knows that pain points of rapidly scaling, marketing and growth firsthand. It was great to geek out on the topic of measurement attribution. I hope you enjoy this conversation.

Stephen, welcome to Rockstar, cmo FM how are you?

Steffen Hedebrandt  27:22  
Hi, I'm good. It's a it's Friday afternoon here. So I'm about to head off to the weekend.

Ian Truscott  27:28  
Nice. Nice. And you're joining us from Copenhagen.

Steffen Hedebrandt  27:31  
That's correct. Copenhagen, Denmark.

Ian Truscott  27:34  
Yeah. And nice. And tell us a little bit about yourself for people who haven't heard of you?

Steffen Hedebrandt  27:38  
Yeah. Unfortunately, still, most people haven't been. Yeah, so ever since I left university, I've been working in b2b companies, I've always been working in companies that are, you know, we're digital, and the Internet has played a large role in in everything. So and then most of the all the companies has done been, you know, startups to scale up. So So those three components, no colour, a lot of all a lot of my thinking about everything we're going to talk about today. So just kind of so and then I started out as a marketer, and worked my way up to, you know, a marketing leader. Now, I'm a co founder at this current company where, you know, we started three guys together, and we're closing in on 30 People now. And in the beginning, I did all the sales, and I did all the marketing. And just recently, I've transitioned into only doing marketing and left, the left the sales work behind. There's been a lot of a lot of experiences, and learnings and failures, both selling and leading sales and those kind of things, which I'm very grateful now, but it was also painful.

Ian Truscott  29:01  
Tell us about that current company just refer to dream data. What is it that you guys do?

Steffen Hedebrandt  29:06  
So a dream that we're essentially we're building a go to market data platform for our customers. What that means is that we set up a data warehouse on behalf of our customers, which basically contains or aims to contain every single digital touch of every account that you deal with. So that's typically that's your CRM CRM data, your marketing automation data, your ads data, your customer success tool, everything that takes place on your website, etc. Yeah. And then given you know, as much as you can about the digital traces of your customers, then you can try to analyse which marketing campaigns are working with AD AD groups are good, what pieces of content works, etc. It's like the people we sell to predominantly marketers. Because I think given the nature of b2b, there's just a lot of pain involved in explaining the value of what you do. Because that's true. fundament, fundamentally, we often as marketers sit early in the journey, and the salespeople sit late in the journey. So they have an easier time going to the CEO and say, look at the contract I just signed. Yeah. Whereas the marketer would argue that look at the 47 touches of marketing that led to your demo cold. Yeah, something like that. Yeah. So what So we essentially mostly helping marketers understand whether their activities connects to pipeline generation and to revenue?

Ian Truscott  30:48  
It's really important, I think, I mean, that's the thing that we find the most painful as marketers is attribution, isn't it? And that attribution model? So how does how does it work for you? Are you is it helping people figure out the attribution of what actually drove a sale? Then through the process?

Steffen Hedebrandt  31:06  
Yes, we have helping them connect the journeys across a lot, you know, six months, 12 months time across many different stakeholders across in and out of teams inside of your own company. So essentially, every touch gets a timestamp and gets put into the the process of you know, that account. And then you know, that you can use to if you can use that to look at what was the very first touch of this account? Yeah. Was it an ad? Was it some buddy who posted something on LinkedIn? Was it a period piece of content that generated an organic visit from Google etc. And this thing about actually knowing the true origin source, and not just kind of the original source field in the CRM, which contrasts flip, flip from team to team? Yeah, you know, that is, you know, a very big differentiator, if you actually know what is actually starting the journeys for a company, because that enables you to, you know, to repeat it. Yeah, this Google search ad keyword, consistently starts doing this, let's put more money into this one, or this type of content, content always brings in new deals, so we should look to produce more of these deals. And then let me just be already here, the first to say that we're never ever gonna get you to knowing 100% of what's going on. I think that that's the kind of black and white dialogue you have. And you cannot track everything, and then everything is wrong. Yeah, it's not like that. It's it's about trying to know as much as you can to go from knowing 1015 20% to knowing 5060 70%. Because that will still support your decision making, and it will still give you confidence to scale certain things and stop other things.

Ian Truscott  33:04  
Yeah, I love it. And what do you I mean, a lot of marketers are doing a trying to do this kind of stuff with tools like Tableau and stuff like that. Are you pulling together all the data of the systems that we already have? And then bringing them in to dream data and surfacing?

Steffen Hedebrandt  33:21  
Yeah, so essentially, you know, I've read somewhere that most, in average, companies have like 10 different tools involved in going to market. And all of these tools are in essence, data silos. Yeah. And what we do is that we plug into all these tools and pull all the data over to us, and then clean it up and organise them into a nice, chronological timeline. So I think what we're really doing is that we're relieving, because this is essentially this is not a project that marketers has the skills to do. This is a data engineer. Job. Yeah. So So you pay us to, for our algorithms to do this heavy lifting. And then you can access the clean data with like, easy to understandable analysis.

Ian Truscott  34:12  
Right? Yeah, no, you're right. I mean, a lot of marketing is becoming data science, isn't it? So if you've got tools that can help you then yeah, yeah. And you've got what caught my eye when we were prepping for this call. And you just mentioned it just now about content analytics now as a content marketer. And I talked to a lot of content marketers on the show, I felt that was that was really important, right? What what is it that your clients are finding is so important about better content analytics that you're providing?

Steffen Hedebrandt  34:40  
Yes, so So let me just explain the concept of what we're doing. So first of all, we connect to the CRM system. So we know every pipeline stage of every account. So we have, you know, a timeline of how far they progress and we have also the monetary value You have the account. This we connect, together with the knowledge that we have a script that we put on your website. And they will anonymously and anonymously track every page that you view. And then at some point, you then submit a form, in the know maybe a demo, call newsletter, or ebook or whatever. And at this point of time we get, we asked for consent to look at what you did while you were anonymous. And that doesn't matter whether you were there only one time or five times on the website, we will have a log of every URL you viewed. So given we know that all the URLs that an account has watched, yeah, then we can also do an analysis off when we when accounts, this company, these are the URLs that are consistently present, or these are the you know, ebook downloads that are present within an account that you win. And when I then I started applying this to our own pipeline, which is fairly simple. It's marketing, qualified leads, sales, qualified leads, and then it's one deals. And I could see certain URLs were actually often present when they produce marketing qualified leads. But they were maybe only, you know, to light or, you know, yeah, to low intent, because they never progressed to becoming sales qualified for deals. But on the other hand side, there were certain URLs that were present when we win deals that were mentioned, for which I found interesting that were not kind of traffic drivers or races, you put traffic. But they were just consistently there because the account had done some research. Yeah. The first one was integrations.

Ian Truscott  36:51  
I can imagine with a tool like yours. Yeah. Yeah. Just a

Steffen Hedebrandt  36:54  
plug into the text. I get that all round. Yeah, it was the the about page. Yeah. Yeah. Which also kind of makes sense. Because our deal size is fairly large. And you know, we're not that all the company. So you're probably trying to do your due diligence of yeah, we can add these guys. Yeah. And then two more. The first one being a URL called community which links to an open Slack channel we have where you can get support, which we had absolutely no idea that that was important. Yeah. And then the last thing, which which kind of caught us by surprise was our fall for page consistently, personally, when when we win deals. Wow. And I think, for me, it's probably a signal that if you are super interested in this product, and seriously considering them, because you do so much, much research on the website, and it's someplace you'll trigger Ryrie page, right, which I just found super funny. And

Ian Truscott  37:53  
then I think that's really interesting. Yeah, that the, the symbol signal of intent and commitment is the fact they've read all of your content. And now they've even read the 404 page, because everything Yeah, that's really

Steffen Hedebrandt  38:06  
funny. Yeah. And in depth page for three years old and Subaki. So that also is triggered a project of how we should probably make that nice, make it a little bit nicer. So so so on analytics is built upon, given that we know, at least conceptually, you know, every URL that your account has watched, we can also look at specifically the accounts that you when which URLs have they looked at? Yeah, so that's how we think about continent analytics.

Ian Truscott  38:34  
That's really interesting. And I've gone on too long about your tool, I was just found it completely fascinating. So let's, let's, let's talk a little bit about your about you. And I also saw that on LinkedIn that you're part of this move wellness is turning into a movement, I think of deleting Google Analytics from your website, and I had a conversation with a marketer in, in, in my group, and my day job that's, that's doing the same thing, because of what's happening in France, and I think in Austria, in terms of GDPR. So how have you found that experience? And it was it was it GDPR that led you to delete Google Analytics?

Steffen Hedebrandt  39:09  
So I think kind of the, the GDP, I think we're kind of the last push we needed, because I think my GA usage has been declining over the last couple of years, particularly as you're because we're in in b2b assess. Google Analytics just doesn't have that much to offer compared to if you're in b2c. And you know, if you run run ecommerce, it's gonna click an ad, go to a website, buy the product. Yeah, in b2b, we're looking at you know, six plus months, multiple devices, multiple stakeholders, etc. And Google Analytics didn't have have much to offer there anymore. And it didn't have a revenue component because the revenue sits in the serum system, of course, so but the last push was definitely this thing that the EU now Are we starting to address privacy concerns? I don't know if it's EU, or at least it's Austria, and it's France. And then Microsoft, the public websites have also now deleted. So instead of it being deemed completely illegal getting rid of it.

Ian Truscott  40:20  
Yeah. It's it's really interesting. I mean, Google Analytic is practically the crack pipe that most of us marketers are hooked onto, isn't it? So how have you found the experience once you got rid of it?

Steffen Hedebrandt  40:32  
Yes, I think I started in 2006, or something like that. And I can still remember that you can see the keyword that people search for. That was wonderful back there. But to be honest, I don't do. I've not missed it, really, we do our own. So that our kind of what we then do is we do our own tracking and store that in the data warehouse, yeah. And then we use Google Data Studio to build certain reports and other reports we built inside of amplitude, instead. But when I wrote that, then other people have LinkedIn said, Hey, what about me? It's nice, isn't it kind of it kind of spirals? And yeah, amplitude has set up data centres in the EU now trying to kind of write, the thing is that PII data is not allowed to leave the European units. Right? Yeah. So then, for what Google Analytics, as far as I understand, it was that they were storing IP addresses in service in the US. So I think that was the that was the thing, you'll probably see a game from them. Also, starting with data centres in the US, it was a little bit of cat and mouse game. But fundamentally, it was kind of stay compliant. And also have some look at metrics that are more relevant for a b2b company.

Ian Truscott  41:53  
Yeah, yeah. And then back onto your career. You've had quite a varied career, a lot of it in commercial, which I thought was interesting. And you mentioned that just earlier about the fact that you you've been in sales, how have you found that experience helping you to be to be a CMO? And what inspired you to get into marketing in the first place?

Steffen Hedebrandt  42:15  
Hmm. Good question. So what got me started was probably just necessity. Because we were, I joined the super small startup called Vintage and rare, which is kind of this. No, just eat but for music, mittens, music, instruments, shops. And again, the my partner, he was the guy who sold and talked to the shops, and then I had to figure out, we had like, more than 10,000 instruments on the page. So we needed to get them to rank in Google, etc. So I started to build a deep down into SEO, at my first job and then just spiralled into other stuff. And what I would say about how I think about marketing is obsessed about producing revenue. So I'm very, you know, call it narrow minded on that. Yeah. Can be a little bit, you know, some, maybe it's because I've never had maybe it's just because I've always worked in, you know, not to big companies. Yeah. Yeah. Because when when you work with a limited bank account, I think needs needs to produce. Absolutely working enterprises, it's maybe not the same role that you play in marketing. Yeah.

Ian Truscott  43:36  
So you've got that you've got that clear view, then Haven't you? And when you're in smaller organisations, from investment to sales, right, and you can't hide, it's not like, if you're working in a large organisation, and you're just focused, you're just one cog in that whole thing, you can't see the whole journey. Whereas when you work with a smaller organisation, you can definitely do that. And that's when marketing yes to be an investment. Right?

Steffen Hedebrandt  43:59  
Yeah, what I've learned that doing that, because I was the only salesperson initially, and then did my first couple of 100 demo calls and all that stuff, then. Yeah, you know, I used to just have an eye for pushing people to the website, converting them, and then let the sales people take take over from there. Yeah, but I've become much more focused on producing high quality. So right, you don't get sales people to sit in a meeting of, you know, non ideal customer profiles. You know, say that marketing is also enabling sales with nice slide decks, a website that handles FA Q's that produces case studies. So, I used to be very, like just focused on, you know, pushing the demand in and converting it, but now it's gonna forget what comes after the democratic conversion. Yeah. How do you make life easier for salespeople?

Ian Truscott  44:54  
Yeah, and it kind of goes back to that point you were making earlier on when you're talking about content analytics and the customer journey. Nowadays, there's a, you know, there's so much written and talked about the fact how much b2b buyers how much content they consume along that journey. Right? So you're right, the website's purpose is no longer just capture the lead, close the lid, you know, and then we can close a lead offline is still part of that nurture process the education, isn't it of the buyer as they go through that journey.

Steffen Hedebrandt  45:22  
So nowadays, I, I tried to make our website answer any question you might have related to our product? Because like, why not make that information available? So you skip the meeting? until they've educated themselves well enough to talk? Should we get to you or not? And I feel it myself as well. Just, you know, I don't want to talk to a sales guy, for I've made the decision to almost buy the product.

Ian Truscott  45:48  
Yeah, absolutely. And I think a lot of people feel that way. And the other thing I think that people forget about this is actually, when you're wasting a sales guys time, you know, the most really good sales guy, the second favourite answer is no, right? So they can just move on and get on with things. And if you can get people to self qualify out of your pipeline, through the website, and this is just not for us, then you've saved everybody likes it. So I haven't

Steffen Hedebrandt  46:13  
actually, you know, all your marketing return on adspend. Yeah. So it depends on the quality of lead, because I spend a lot of money acquire all leads, that means poor return on high quality leads means, you know, yeah, conversion sales, and it means your you look better as well.

Ian Truscott  46:32  
Yeah, absolutely. And we have a lot of conversations on the show about the fact that senior marketers need to make themselves relevant to the rest of the C suite, which is why cmo churn is so high, it's because we talked, we talk, you know, marketing, bollocks all the time, when we should be talking about revenue and those kinds of statistics. I think it's, you know, those kinds of metrics, rather that the C suite cares about. So I think that's good.

Steffen Hedebrandt  46:54  
I really think more marketing and sales teams should move into the same room. Yeah. Yeah. Listen to what the salespeople are experiencing. I don't have a I have an extra pint or two with the salespeople. Yeah,

Ian Truscott  47:07  
absolutely. And that's the only way you can also find out what's the what's the best being the best answer to your consumer to your customers. Question, right? Yeah, our sales what do they get asked in every every court, you know, so we need to take them on website. That's excellent. I really enjoyed the conversation. So finally comes the final question. Now, Stephen. We have a regular feature on the Rockstar CMA called Rockstar CMA swim pool in tribute to all the rock stars in hotel spoonfuls, but it's Apple's marketing healthcare overhyped trends BS, a snake oil from this marketing industry, we love doing a little bit of time think about it there. What would you like to see Chuck into our booth?

Steffen Hedebrandt  47:43  
Oh, you know, it depends on the day. Or the browser? I would say. But I would say marketing activities that are both non explainable and none provable related to revenue share just stuck. Yeah, I see so many people talking about it. You need to do demand generation of brand communication. And seeing that, but I promise you, if it's good quality marketing, maybe there will not be massive proof. But there will at least be some clicks from your branded campaign on Facebook that went on to become deals. So don't let me hear about campaigns. That cannot be it? Yes. In some sense. Yeah. Because if it's quality marketing, then it leaves trace it is not completely on on draggable.

Ian Truscott  48:40  
Right. Right. I love it. I love it. So untrackable marketing that we shouldn't be doing. We'll be going into Apple. I love it. Thank you, Stephen. And when people don't spin the dial on the interwebs where they're gonna find you and dream data.

Steffen Hedebrandt  48:52  
Yeah, dream that is just dreamed of a.io Yeah, they can connect with me on LinkedIn and ask any question essentially, I'm, I'm fairly active there and happy to help with anything I can.

Ian Truscott  49:03  
Yeah. Splendid. Thank you, Stephen. And I'll include all yours, your links in the show notes. And nice to speak to thank you very much. Enjoy the rest of your Friday, Stephen. Likewise,

Thank you, Stephen enjoyed that. A nice looking platform and having worked with small businesses and startups, I agree. This is marketing in the role that the marketing budget has to be seen as an investment delivers a return. I will of course include all of Stephens links and to dream data in the show notes that you can find on Rockstar cmo.fm right time to wind down for the week and we're better than the Rockstar cmo virtual bar with a man once described as a likeable Mark Ritson and to join my friend and content marketing guru Robert Rhoades, the chief troublemaker at the content advisory to be transported away with a cocktail and a marketing

veniam robots What are you drinking?

Robert Rose  50:14  
Oh, hello my friend. It's nice to see you. It's nice to see you for the weekend. We well let's see this this week. We have a lovely addition. I decided to get fancy. Oh yeah no I it's it's a thing right to get you know, feeling good about the weather. things in the world are not great right now of course you don't need knowledge that at the moment but but the but the drink we're going to have is a fancy thing. Because I was reminded that we have just I completely missed it somehow but we just passed Mardi Gras. Oh wow. So I thought it might be kind of fun to do something with bourbon. And I found this and tried it and I'm going to make it for us tonight. Because it's a it's a very very tasty cocktail takes a little bit of work. But it you know what, what worth things that are worth it do and it's called a bourbon peach Julep. And so hang with me here because it's a little complicated. Basically, what you do is you have your bourbon, whatever favourite bourbon you like probably not the best bourbon in the entire world because it is a cocktail after all, so it's not one that you're going to normally spend a lot of money on to drink straight. So it's a cocktail oriented bourbon that you have but your favourite bourbon and then basically two peaches and you slice them now other stone fruit will work just as well don't have access to peaches But peaches I found tastes really lovely. And then again, the recipe typically calls for some sort of syrup I think the peaches add enough sweetness without adding anything but again, you know, I'm a lack of sugar guy that way. But then you take mint or basil if you have it. Mint I like better than basil but you know the either is fine. Mix those things together. And make a basic emulsion, you know whether you you know, push that into a blender or you push that all together or whatever it is, and then pouring your bourbon over the rocks. And you have made yourself a bourbon peach Julep. And it is entirely tasty. I have to say that

Ian Truscott  52:35  
sounds delicious. And Did did you invent that?

Robert Rose  52:39  
I did not invent that. No, I I found that in a I was doing. I was reading about Mardi Gras. And I found it in a in an article that I was reading about Mardi Gras. And I thought that sounds lovely. I'm going to try and make

Ian Truscott  52:51  
that. That sounds that sounds really nice. So I'm going to attempt to make that very drink using the ingredients on my desktop. And so I'm going to start off with some ice. Yes, I think we're hosting,

Robert Rose  53:06  
not peaches, but yes.

Ian Truscott  53:10  
And I shall use the most English of bourbons as we know, when I look at my desktop bar, it's Hendrick's gin.

Robert Rose  53:19  
Ah, yes, indeed. clearest of all bourbons. Yes, exactly.

Ian Truscott  53:23  
I do like a bourbon. Actually. I was in a bar last night and people were drinking whiskey sours. I didn't partake in one of those but I saw the bourbon being flushed about so there's a bit of gin and then and then you made an emotion. I thought that was interesting.

Robert Rose  53:39  
Yeah, just pushing it all around. I mean, you can also use one of the slices or some of your mentors garnish night, but you know, you want to get the taste of that stuff in there and not make it a you know, not make it a mess. Right. So I like to sort of mix it all together into a nice flavoured cocktail as it were. No,

Ian Truscott  53:59  
right. Yes, well, I've just opened an emotion that's been pre made for me by the good people of fever tree and they called it cucumber 20 So it's it's got essence of sorts of peaches,

Robert Rose  54:12  
some sort of impulse of emotion emotes,

Ian Truscott  54:15  
emotes Libby, let me sing a bit of that in there. All right. Nice. Give that a sip. Oh, that is truly delicious rubber that is very reminiscent of Mardi Gras and we'll be calling Yeah,

Robert Rose  54:32  
there you go. We should throw some beads and yeah cops off or something I think

Ian Truscott  54:38  
yes. I've already got my top off what I will be calling this

Robert Rose  54:45  
we call him that the bourbon peach Julep ah, I think the Jays mission and that we're adding in as a garden garnish. They're

Ian Truscott  54:54  
nice. I could drink these every week.

Robert Rose  54:56  
Yes, I think he died. I think

Ian Truscott  54:58  
you have So are we drinking these a Mardi Gras? Or? Oh, yes, I

Robert Rose  55:02  
think you know, in terms of where we're going, I think we have to go to New Orleans. i We haven't. You know, New Orleans typically is not my favourite spot in the world. I am not the big fan of New Orleans. But, you know, for very specific purposes, mostly, which is drinking and Mardi Gras, New Orleans, wonderfully fun. City, it's a bit like Vegas, right? If you're purpose driven. It can be a fun place to visit. But it's not somewhere I normally like to go.

Ian Truscott  55:27  
No, no, but I've actually never been to New Orleans. And it's, it's on my list of places that and I've been to many places in the US and not there, which is a bit of a shame. I've been to Memphis which I guess is the closest I can think of that I've been to. So the so we're we're probably barely able to hear each other talking over the cacophony of Mardi Gras. But what are we going to be discussing? Once we've checked our beads around the tape now tops off?

Robert Rose  55:55  
Well, it's you know, it's it's a topic that I was thinking of, a couple of weeks ago, actually. And the I you know, it's around writing, right, it's around creating content. Are you familiar? So I and forgive me if this is truly a US thing? With the phrase, it's time to make the donuts?

Ian Truscott  56:20  
Yes, but you know, why I'm familiar with that, is because you say a lot. There you go. I thought it was a you thing rather than American? No, it's

Robert Rose  56:31  
an American thing. No, it's it. Yeah, it's definitely an American thing. And it's and it's mostly an American business thing. And the phrase itself has become a bit of a cliche or a trope, if you will. And it's from the 80s when there was a TV ad, very, very popular television campaign. In fact, it ran for almost 10 years for Dunkin Donuts. And, and the Dunkin Donuts had a campaign called it's time to make the donuts and it was basically, now it's considered you say, it's time to make the donuts, when you're having to do something repetitive or gruelling or meaningless in your job, I can tell it's time to go make the donuts, right, you know, to go do the same thing I've been doing for years, that kind of thing. And the interesting thing to me was that that's a complete misreading of the original message in the commercial. Because the ad itself, there was this character that they called Fred, the baker, and bread, the Baker was this sort of put upon guy, you know, very sort of every every man kind of looking, you know, neither handsome, nor ugly, nor, you know, sort of anything, he was just sort of woke up every single morning every day, and repeated his mantra, you know, sort of, you know, sleepily gets out of bed time to make the donuts gets out of the shower time to make the donuts, catches breakfast time to make the donuts. And then at the end of the ad, you see Fred greeting his customers saying time to make the donuts with a big smile, and he's proud and loves is clear that he loves his job. And so then the add time to make the donuts wasn't a lament about doing something menial and repetitive every day, it was basically illustrating Fred's commitment to doing something special every day. And that tension between content and content creators is something that I've really noticed over the last few years, which is, there is a real difference in creating content that we are inspired by that is special, and the content that has to be constructed, which is quite frankly, important to the business, but nobody gives a clue. Mm hmm. And so as an example of that, and this was what I was doing a couple of weeks ago, there was this young writer at a b2b organisation, b2b technology company. And she was telling me about her career path. And she'd been, you know, she'd worked at an agency and she wrote brilliant articles and blog posts for all of her b2b clients at this agency, and she was great. And a couple of years later, she moved to Content Marketing at a very large tech company. And she loved her job. She got to, you know, write short form news and long form papers about industry trends and dig into the industry and interview people and she loved it. And it was, you know, sort of day after day, but then the company reorganised a couple of times. And she found herself sort of, you know, in the web team now, and she was editing not really writing very much, but she was doing editing and sort of, you know, shaping some of the more technical specifications, documentation, some of the, you know, product, how to help etc. And not loving her job so much and she asked her manager about the possibility of sort of expanding her assignments that she was getting tasked with, and her boss basically coldly replied and Look writers are writers and writing is writing. And I can tell you from the from experience that the first statement is true, you know, writers are writers, but the second is definitely not true. Writing, all writing is not writing. And not surprisingly, she left she left the company because it was just not gonna, you know. And so in this, you know, whether you whether you want to call it like this great resignation era, or the talent acquisition importance or whatever we're doing. One of the things that we need to recognise as hiring managers, as marketers, as communicators, as agency owners, or whatever we're doing is that kind of finding and retaining great content talent, you have to balance these content creators, between what I call creating content or constructing content, right. And so, when we think about creating content, and there's a wonderful quote, that I just absolutely adore, in fact, I've got it printed out on my desk, which is actually comes from a critique of Charles Dickens, Pickwick Papers. And, and the quote is, basically, something created is different from something constructed, because something created is loved, before it exists, constructed can only be loved after it exists. Wow, yeah, what I love so much about that is, is that that's the key, right? When we write a white paper, or we write whatever, you know, side creative ideas, we love those ideas before they actually are on paper, or on the screen or whatever. And we talk about it, and we collaborate. And it's what gets us out of bed every day, when we construct something as important as it may be, you know, that contract that compliance issue, the, you know, the one sheet on the specifications of a technical documentation is important, but it can only be loved because of the function that it serves. After it's created. Nobody gets out of bed, excited to do that. And that's the difference. And we have to balance those things. Because I was working with a company not long ago, where they were saying, Hey, we're gonna hire all these content creators and do all these wonderful things with, you know, content marketing and content strategy. But we're going to put everybody into little pigeon holes, right? So, yeah, these content creators and product, they're only going to create product one sheets, these content creators, and brands are only going to create brand content, and so on and so forth. And that's a mistake. I said, because what's going to happen is that you're going to either squander great talent, or you're going to burn people out in terms of the kinds of things that they're creating wonderful things about writers and content creators, is when they have the balance. And yes, some days we have to construct stuff. And some days, we get to create stuff. And that balance is what's important in getting to a great, you know, a great communication strategy.

Ian Truscott  1:02:49  
Yeah, I love that. And you're absolutely right, the way that I mean, I've never heard that quote before, it totally defines. And your your friends challenge with her her role? Is it to totally different things, isn't it when you're doing that functional stuff, where you're editing is totally different from coming up with the ideas and being creative. And that difference between construction and creativity, I think is really interesting.

Robert Rose  1:03:12  
Yeah, yeah. And it's a funny thing that you can't, you know, you know, to make it easy to, to sort of get right away, I use the examples of sort of technical specifications and contracts and compliance versus things like white papers, or blog posts, and those kinds of things. Because that's just easy to sort of mentally picture. But it really doesn't have anything to do with what it is you're creating. Because I can make an argument to say, there's a way to do technical specifications that would be creative, and wonderfully, you know, that would be created content rather than constructed. There's a way to do contracts and compliance documentation that would be the same, same way. So it's less about the output. But it's the process by which it's created. Right? That's the important thing is and it's how is that being created? Versus is it constrained?

Ian Truscott  1:04:02  
And it let's say, it's in the eye of the writer as well, isn't it? Because some people hopefully

Robert Rose  1:04:06  
it is right. Hope. Yeah, it is. Yeah. Cuz

Ian Truscott  1:04:08  
some people love contracts and writing legal documents and feel that such a creative, you know, they would get flow doing that. So they'd be in a creative process. But for others, that's like, that is construction. That is just hard construction for them.

Robert Rose  1:04:24  
Yeah, that's right. And, and, and, however, there is a there is a there is a lens to look through around what it is we're actually creating or constructing because quite frankly, there are things that shouldn't be created that should be constructed right contracts are a great example. Yes, it would be lovely to put as much creative passion as you want to in a contract, but that's not really the right vehicle for that, you know, you know, in an invoice you know, writing an invoice is not the kind of place where you're looking for a lot of love and passion and creative tivity going into that, that's the that's the key is that there are some things that are more appropriate for one or the other, given our business and given what we do. But then it's the approach that we take to doing it, right. So if your business is like, oh, no, we actually do want to put a lot of love and passion and creation into our contracts. Fantastic. That's wonderful. you balance it that way. others not so much, right. And it's not any less important to the business that we have great contracts are great compliance materials are great how to manual or a great, you know, web page that gives us this technical specifications of our product, all those things are important. It's just that many of those things, by default, or definition, shouldn't be seen as wanting to be loved before they exist, it's that they are useful for us or valuable to us after they exist. And that's the difference in terms of creating or constructing. And the important thing is, is that your content creators have a balance of both.

Ian Truscott  1:06:03  
Yeah, absolutely. And that's so true. Because, you know, having been having run those teams, having been there myself, you know, if you want that you want that variety in the day and in India, and I hope that your child went on to doing something cool, and she got what she wanted. So is that is that a happy ending to the story?

Robert Rose  1:06:23  
You know, I think the story is yet to be finished. You know, my colleague who left the other company has now joined another company where she is safely ensconced in a content marketing team, but I have not heard from her in some time. So I'm assuming that things are going well. I usually don't hear from people till they're happy.

Ian Truscott  1:06:50  
That's the problem being the sort of advisor you are Robert, mostly have broad shoulders that people can come and cry on.

Robert Rose  1:06:56  
A lot of I don't get a lot of calls going. I am so happy here. I'm just telling you about how safely I feel right now.

Ian Truscott  1:07:04  
That's fine. Thank you. And where when people are looking to read these kinds of things where they you make your doughnuts,

Robert Rose  1:07:13  
how well these days, it seems to be at our little hovel on the Internet called Content advisory dotnet, which is mostly created content. There's a few constructed pieces. It's mostly created stuff.

Ian Truscott  1:07:25  
And when people spend the dial on the interwebs, where they're gonna find you

Robert Rose  1:07:29  
will I'll be hanging around on LinkedIn more and more these days. And LinkedIn, and of course, I'm on Twitter as well.

Ian Truscott  1:07:37  
Splendid. And more importantly, will you be hanging out in the bar next week?

Robert Rose  1:07:41  
Of course. Absolutely.

Ian Truscott  1:07:44  
Excellent. I'll see you then.

Thank you, listener, hope you're enjoying our doughnuts. So that's a wrap on episode 103 in the Rockstar, cmo effing Marketing Podcast, thank you for dropping a dime into your podcasting jukebox, selecting our track and jiving along. I've been your host Ian Truscott. Thanks again to jest FM and Robert for sharing their insight please say hello, follow their work and check out all the links in the show notes that you can find on your favourite podcast app or Rockstar cmo.fm. We can also find all our previous episodes does the world need another effing Marketing podcast? Please let us know and help other people find whatever this is by dropping a rating or review in your favourite podcast app or just keep listening. I'm glad you're here. Next week, my guest post bonus I'm working on the guest schedules. But Jeff and I will continue with the effing marketing fundamentals. And Robert will be back in the Rockstar cmo virtual. Till then have a great week. Again, join us here next week on Rockstar cmo

Transcribed by https://otter.ai