Feb. 12, 2022

#101 - The Jeff Clark Part II, Influencing with Gordon and Being the Director of your Content Cocktail Episode

#101 - The Jeff Clark Part II, Influencing with Gordon and Being the Director of your Content Cocktail Episode

Part two of Ian's chat with Jeff Clark, we learn about being an influencer with Gordon Glenister and being the director of your content strategy with Robert Rose.

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This week it's part two of Ian Truscott's interview with our regular expert, Jeff Clark (Principal, Strategic Advisory at Rockstar CMO). We pick up the discussion with Jeff sharing what he's learned from his time as a Research Director at SiriusDecisions /Forrester and the various CMO's he's worked for over his career. With some sage advice for new marketing leaders.

This week's guest is Gordon Glenister who runs his own global influencer marketing programme helping individuals be the go-to person in their niche. He is a global leader on influencer marketing and has been featured in the Thinkers360 top global leaders on PR, is a highly regarded keynote speaker, host and panellist.

Gordon is also the host of Influence the Global podcast and author of the best selling book Influencer Marketing Strategy. He has co-founded a number of trade associations including the Influence Division of the Branded Content Marketing Association, the Meetings and Events Support Association and Membership World. Gordon is an active blogger and writes for the London Evening Standard and numerous other publications.

And, finally, we wind down the week in the Rockstar CMO virtual bar, where Ian finds Robert Rose, Chief Troublemaker at The Content Advisory and they discuss what we can learn from the film industry when directing our content strategy.



The people:


The mentions:


The music:


Previous episodes, show notes and transcripts are on Rockstar CMO FM and the podcast is available on all your favorite platforms, including Apple and Spotify.


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This transcript was automatically generated by a machine, and as it becomes sentient it may have its own ideas of what we said....

"I'm sorry Dave, I'm afraid I can't do that"


Jeff Clark  0:01  
I think I've got that you I think you hit that right?

Ian Truscott  0:05  
Like I made some notes

Hello and welcome to Episode 101, Rockstar cmo F. M M is a marketing and F it's a well, it's you're probably wondering, does the world need another effing Marketing podcast? I'm your host Ian Truscott and this weekly podcast that is my excuse to chatter marketing friends, old and new that I've met through my career from techie to CMOS, and hopefully share with you some Aarthi street knowledge that my guests and I have picked up along the way. Come say hello, we are Rockstar cmo on Twitter and LinkedIn, and a proud member of the Marketing Podcast Network. This episode is called on Friday the 11th of February hope you had a good week and you are well safe and staying as sane as you feel you need to be. This week we continue my interview with Jeff Clark, I get to dig into influencer marketing with fellow NPN podcaster Gordon glennister. And we wind down the week in the Rockstar cmo virtual bar with Robert Rose for a cocktail and a marketing thought.

But first, we need to tell you that I'll be back in a moment.

First segment if you're a regular listener, you'll be familiar with the wise words of Jeff Clark, former research director at siriusdecisions Forrester and principles strategic advisory here at Rockstar cmo as we regularly chew the fat on various marketing topics to celebrate episode 100. Last week, I thought it was time, we shared a bit more about where this wisdom came from, Get the insider tips from his industry career, and through his time advising an amazing roster of clients and share with you a bit about the Jeff Clark. I know. Of course, we went too long. So we decided to split the conversation into two last week, we covered his early career and tips from his time at various well known b2b technology vendors. And we rejoin as we dig into his experience as an analyst. As we plan to split the interview, you'll have to bear with my edit as we jumped straight back.

Jeff Clark  2:39  
That usually was one of the verses from problems because people with an older vision or a different vision still existed. Yeah, couldn't get aligned.

Ian Truscott  2:49  
Yeah, it's back to the point you were making just now about your your experience actually being in house wasn't it about, about your quote there good plan, well executed is better than a perfect plan poorly executed? I think I've got that. Right.

Jeff Clark  3:01  
You I think you hit that right.

Ian Truscott  3:05  
Like I made some notes. So I mean, the primary thing you saw then as an advisor for these organisations was about having that agreed plan execution, rather than, like cutting out this thing from different directions and getting that structure together. And did you see like real differences when you started to get organisations aligned that? Oh, you know, that might be satisfying?

Jeff Clark  3:31  
Absolutely. I mean, there was some, you know, and there were a couple companies that that, I mean, I was involved in sort of, like, helping them tell their story. And I was loosely involved in the actual advisory part, because, you know, and one of the great things about the model we had was that, you know, different advisors could come in and, you know, take one by one problem and have different people come in and talk about it, but yeah, they're, you know, particularly from the focus on, on aligning around campaign strategies. I mean, you would see companies where, you know, engagement, I mean, the all the stats would just go on, we're getting better engagement, we're doing it one of the keys is we're doing less tactical work and getting better results. And and then, you know, when sales and marketing are kind of aligned along that same go to market approach, I mean, then then you lose, you lose the friction that you would typically get sales and marketing about the people in sales going I mean, these people are sending all this stuff out and nothing doesn't mean anything to my customer. Or, or salespeople aren't following up on all the, you know, yeah, all the

Ian Truscott  4:37  
things we've had said, Yeah, and I agree, and what and from so if I if I was, let's imagine I'm a brand new cmo in a b2b organisation or a senior leader, a b2b organisation, which you

Jeff Clark  4:51  
are but mentioned.

Ian Truscott  4:56  
Well, that's matching. And then what do you think you I'm not using this as a free consultancy.

Jeff Clark  5:03  
Get that before we get.

Ian Truscott  5:07  
So what's what are a few things you think that people should focus on marketing team should focus on some of the some of the key tactics to I mean, clearly, you know, planning strategy, aligning people is a tough job. But what other sort of things do you think we need to be doing? Well,

Jeff Clark  5:24  
I think that, you know, I mean, to sort of continue with a theme I started with here, is that the, the primary and secondary research into understanding the customer? I mean, it can it for one, it's essential, but you know, it can it can help for different parts of the marketing team, you know, so like, you know, win loss analysis. I know, you're going to have one of my former colleagues talk about that soon. You talking a lot to third party analysts? I mean, certainly, when I was, you know, at one of the software companies, we'd be talking to Forrester and Gartner and you know, ask them about what they're hearing, doing your own focus groups, doing brand studies. I was always amazed that, you know, we would do a brand study, and we we'd feed the information back to executives, and they'd be like, yeah, right. You know, they, and it's like, well, I guess we interviewed like, 150 people and got all this detail. And they think we, you know, we're good here, we suck here, or whatever. And, and then they pull out their anecdote that would try to, you know, put a hole in it. And, but you know, it also doing, which I think has been more of a trend recently, customer journey analysis, yeah, where, where do you touch customers, who's touching them between annual sales, support marketing. And, and I think all of those, all of those things are just incredibly important. It's almost like you'd say, hey, you know, let's stop doing any marketing for the next two or three months. And just like, just everybody dives in and does some aspect of researching, yeah, pulling research together from various sources and see if we can come up with a picture of our customers, and how we should be talking to them. Because that, you know, it's like, you know, there's the old adage of changing the engines while the planes in flight. And, you know, that's hard to do. But, but if you ever get that opportunity.

Ian Truscott  7:31  
Yeah, but I also think, and that is, you start asking, why around the business about what you know, because you can do that when you're new, right? You can say, Well, why why do you think that? Why is it new, and try and drive and find the data? And if there isn't any, then you quickly run out of ways, don't you? Yeah, because we do it that way. It's okay. Right?

Jeff Clark  7:50  
Well, there was one company we work with where they, they did, they did a lot of research, and they came up with a list of customer needs. And they and they rank them based on what they knew internally. They were good at, and what worked with the customer terms of how to phrase the need, and and they just developed their whole campaign architecture around it again, it's like, you could see the stats, it's like, you know, yeah, yeah, brings everything together.

Ian Truscott  8:20  
Absolutely. All right. Well, so I'm gonna keep on the with the questions that I prepared, I didn't realise it's gonna take this direction where it was actually a personal strategy session. But the question I wanted to ask you, and and I know, we both have to be careful with this, because we've had, we've had I've, yes, we have had some of our bosses on the show. Without naming names, what makes up the qualities of a rockstar b2b cmo, in your experience with someone? They won't

Jeff Clark  8:52  
hire us again? I

Ian Truscott  8:53  
don't know. Wow, they came on the show.

Jeff Clark  8:59  
Yeah, um, yeah, that's right. Well, he had some, I mean, a couple things certainly come to mind. And I think, a solid role understanding of marketing's role within a company, which is obviously different from company to company. And if you have new software versus a electric utility versus a, you know, whatever, it's the marketing is going to be different. So kind of understanding what that should be. Yeah. And then also what it is, you know, because, you know, if somebody comes on board, and they're doing their 90 day, you know, plan based on the book, which I can't remember the title of it, but it's like the 90, whatever, that 90 days, first 90 days. And, and, and it's like, you know, you want to talk to people to get an understanding what they think marketing should be I know, you know, one of our previous bosses said, you know, that that was a really eye opener for him in terms of understand what, what was expected as marketing's contribution. But you do also want to understand kind of what where it should be, because over time you want to, you want to migrate from perhaps where it is to work. And so I think taking that journey is part of the CMO, creating a tight bond with the executive team. I mean, there was one cmo actually helped. He was a CMO, what I was working for, but he was firstly operating that way. And then we had a couple of cmo positions after that, and, and he had a very tight bond with the executive team, as a contributor. I mean, not as just as I'm the marketing guy on the team, but as contributing, you know, his analysis. And I know what he did or what he left, it's like, you know, yeah, it was funny, because he was not internally was not known as sort of like a great marketing mind. But, uh, but again, he was able to contribute to the executive team understand what the decided strategy was, and then how we were supposed to execute that, on that. And,

Ian Truscott  10:57  
yeah, I've had that conversation here with an executive coach about CMOS, that you can't sit in those meetings, just as the most senior marketer, yeah, bring your you've got a contribute to the, to the round the company strategy, right? And

Jeff Clark  11:12  
they know, you know, a lot of CMOS go in, and it's like, Okay, we're gonna rebrand, we're going to, you know, we're gonna talk about the new OS, we're gonna blah, blah, blah, blah. And it's like, so often, that's like, that's not the problem. And, and, and so, so yeah, so really understanding and being an active participant in the company strategy, that's really what that comes down to. And then you got to, you know, motivate your direct reports to think outside their comfort zones, because you're typically, you know, direct reports or in functional positions, comms PR, you know, digital blah, blah, blah, blah. And it's like they, the leaders in particular, all have to be thinking about if we're focused on certain customer sets, or partner sets or whatever, how we're working across our, our teams to affect that, as opposed to, you know, working in our silos. And then, you know, I mean, the last thing is, that is really good CMOS, I've seen do try to connect with everybody in at the various levels of department. I mean, they don't just have their team meetings, and I expect the teams to go off and do their thing. And they don't necessarily, you know, talk to the, you know, the event coordinator. Yeah. Until till they're on the stage at the user conference. Yeah,

Ian Truscott  12:33  
yeah. Yeah. And, you know, and understand the needs of the people on the ground to actually doing the work is what you're saying? Yeah, well,

Jeff Clark  12:43  
and then they, you know, you want to be able to have comfortable conversations up and down. Yeah. And that's true. That's true for the CEO, as well as it's not just true for the CMO.

Ian Truscott  12:53  
Yeah, no, that's great. So some good advice there for budding CMOS. One thing I did want to do, and we were crazy, ran out of time, as usual. I mean, when we chat, and I, what I wanted to do is touch on your passion for the topic of climate change, because it's kind of like, weird, isn't it? Because it's where you started. And you were telling us about that was the beginning of your career? And of course, you know, regular listeners will know that sometimes you take a break from the show to go do that stuff. Yeah. And tell us a bit. Tell us a bit about that work. And what's your passion there. And what is you doing?

Jeff Clark  13:28  
Well, is one thing it just popped in my mind is when I was I was running the New Hampshire Solar Energy Association back in the early 80s, we had a bumper sticker saying solar energy, the future is now and then and then as funding for solar projects, and certainly for a public level was going away. And as the as the industry was kind of, you know, weathering because the price of oil, all the various dynamics that were changing back then I would often quip solar energy the future was last decade. But now, now, I can honestly say that the, you know, from a cost competitive standpoint, and, you know, ease of implementation, etc. You know, the future is definitely today, right? It's actually been here for for Yeah, for a few years. And so I think, you know, so one of the passions is just seeing that all of that technology that was being developed back in those days, really coming to fruition and broadly, I mean, I, I'm where I am in, in Central Massachusetts, I mean, every farms got big solar collectors, every, you know, our university, Massachusetts has every every parking lots got, you know, the, the panels that hang over it. And so it's, um, so, I mean, it's just, you know, it's certainly motivated to see that happen, but it's also just like, we're in this this, you know, 10 Year race where it's like we're supposed to reduce our greenhouse gas emissions by 50%. Sandin everybody's dragging their feet. And I do a lot of work on the state level, from a, from a legislation perspective, because I firmly believe that policy, it's kind of like the market dynamics are kind of there. But the policies are actually really more tilted towards the old way of doing business with fossil fuels. So it's like, he got it, you know, we got to change those. Anytime there's a real issue of things not changing properly, it's usually bad incentive structure. And so we got to change that. So. So that's the the thing I'm really been focused on last couple years,

Ian Truscott  15:38  
says gets it for the Jeff Clark fans, it's good to know what you're up to when you. Finally write, as you know, and I think you've answered this question before, we have a regular feature on the Rockstar cmo called Rockstar CMOS, some input in tribute to all the rockstars that threw things in hotels, swimming pools that the young kids don't remember, but it's our portal sumartin Hell for the oversight trends BS, this may cut off in the marketing industry we love. What would you like to see chuck in our pool?

Jeff Clark  16:05  
You know, I was just remembering the last year through Account Based Marketing, he did, because I said, all b2b marketing is gumpaste. And selling, and I pulled agile out of the pool, you got this, you threw it in, I pulled it out. Somebody senses probably thrown it back in. I mean, there's so many things, and I think the pools a bit, frankly, a bit full at this point. But yeah, it was the thing I was thinking about was actually not a new hype thing, but kind of an old thing. Because as I was my last couple years at serious decisions, I mean, we were trying to throw the lead funnel into the pool, and talk more about, you know, there's just this shared engagement between the marketing sales and any other customer facing function that that needs to be followed more than a, you know, you know, we're starting with, you know, whatever 1000 market interactions, and we're winnowing it down to, you know, what the opportunities are. It's just a much more complicated process than that. And actually, you need to go back, if we go back to the early earlier days of marketing, where everything was account based, it's like it, it was sales, marketing, working together to increase the brand awareness, preference, and engagement with with customers. And so that's the way we should be thinking about it.

Ian Truscott  17:27  
Yeah. And I think, um, we did chat about the lead funnel, didn't we a couple of weeks ago, and the fact that this this this physical thing, and it doesn't exist, you know, yeah. I think we made reference to squid games, because we're down with the core kit. So that's perfect. So we'll be checking that into the into the very the brimming. And water out a bit of an amalgamation this week, just because normally, I don't ask my guests that interview for a song choice. But since it's you, and we normally have a song choice from you. What have you got for this week?

Jeff Clark  18:00  
Yeah, I was I was thinking about because this was the as I was, we were talking about the 20 questions. Yeah. Interview as I was thinking about, well, songs that deal with questions. And unfortunately, I know, we'd like to be as contemporary as possible. The the song machine was spitting out everything from 1960. And so one of my favourite tunes from my hometown of Chicago is questions 67 and 68, which I don't think we actually got that high. But hey, throw it in there anyway. Yeah, by

Ian Truscott  18:35  
Chicago from

Jeff Clark  18:36  

Ian Truscott  18:38  
Oh, wow. Wow, we were doing so well. We got up to 2009 last week,

Jeff Clark  18:42  
but next next week,

Ian Truscott  18:44  
I will tell you the future. So So I'll play out with questions. 6768 by Chicago, which to be honest, the cup and 1968 Thank you very much for your time, Jeff. Thanks for sharing your story and roll up on

Jeff Clark  19:00  
Yes. I think we're back on education.

Ian Truscott  19:03  
Yes, we should get back to it. I'll speak to then my kids. Please don't tell me so happy

to be so that was question 67. 68 by Chicago from 1968 I don't actually think I've ever heard that song before. So thank you, Jeff for that, and some absolute gems of advice from our interview. We'll be back to our normal pontifications next week, and I will of course include all of Jeff's links in the show notes that you can find at Rockstar cmo.fm. right onto my guest, Gordon glennister runs his own global influencer marketing programme helping individuals be the go to person in their niche. He is a global leader on influencer marketing and has been featured in the thinker's 360 Top Global Leaders on PR is a highly regarded keynote speaker host and panellists. Gordon is the host of influence, the global podcast and author of the best selling book influencer marketing strategy. He has co founded a number of trade associations including the influence division of the branded content marketing association, the meetings and events support Association, and membership world. Gordon is an active blogger and writes to the London Evening Standard and numerous other publications.

Welcome Gordon to Rockstar CMOS em. How are you my friend?

Unknown Speaker  21:13  
Oh, I'm good. I'm good. So pleased to see you bouncing and bubbly.

Ian Truscott  21:20  
Well, I've had me I've had a cup of tea, a couple of cups of coffee. I'm in good shape. So where are we chatting to you from today, Gordon?

Unknown Speaker  21:28  
So I live just outside of Cambridge, beautiful PartnerWorld little village I've got four lakes on my doorstep here. And it's been great particularly in lockdown to be able to have somewhere where you can, you know, go and have a nice walk. And it's it's it was what I call actually it's an RSPB nature reserve. It's what I call a service station for birds. We do have the most amazing birds all around the world that literally almost nest breed and then fly on to the North Pole or whatever. So it's quite a lovely place to have so close. And then I'm not that far away. Go down to London quite a bit. It's it's nice to just jump on a train. So I like that the mixture of the vibe of London. Yes, the tranquillity of where I live.

Ian Truscott  22:11  
Yeah, I don't have I don't have a bird sanctuary. But I'm out in. I'm out in Oxfordshire as well. So I mean, you're probably the most local guest, I've spoken to the same country probably both suffering the same grey weather today, as I mentioned the weather. But for folks that don't know you, and I've had the pleasure of chatting to you a few times. Tell us a little bit about yourself.

Gordon Glenister  22:32  
Right, great. Well, it's lovely to be on the show. I mean, I My background is quite varied very much a sort of sales and marketing area worked in the sole matches for a living. I've worked in the industry, cider and beer in particular, have had my own incentive company. And I've also run a trade association for 11 years, which is the promotional products industry where I've got quite a lot of my reputation there as a sort of industry leader. And then in 2018, I start I left that and started my own consultancy to help other trade associations actually with their strategy and helping improve that. Not thinking for a moment I'd ever end up in the influencer marketing industry. And sometimes things happen as my mum says things happen for a reason. And I met the the Global Head of the brainy Content Marketing Association in Soho, and then Charlotte Street Hotel. Never forget, we were just having a chat about various things. And I just happen to say, you know, who's looking after the the influencer space who's looking after the agencies, the brands, the influences themselves, it's a very unrelated regulated sector, it's full of lots of challenges, the media has given it a bit of a knock, who's looking after their interest. So we realised there hadn't been so anyway, cut a long story short, we set up the influence division of the branded content marketing association. And that was back in 2019. And since then, I've published a book on influencer marketing strategy. And I have, I host my own podcast, which is called influence the global podcast, which you know about, which is obscene. I mean, to be honest, I've never written a book before. Never, ever really done a podcast. And I now write for the London Evening Standard newspaper. Just everything seems to have happened very positively. And then more recently, I'm also Chief Strategy Officer for for audience to media, which is a global marketing agency that's got over 100 million people on its platform. I mean, who would have thought these things? Yeah, and yeah, I'm involved in

Ian Truscott  24:48  
I love that you just answered about three of my questions in one hour. You can tell a good podcast guest you just like bam bam bam nursery. So where do we start? I know it wasn't something you prep for But why don't we start with the book? I mean, what's the name of your book? And when did you publish it? And what was the process for that?

Unknown Speaker  25:06  
So okay, the book was published in March last year, but I had an art and it's called influencer marketing strategy. And I had to be honest, I'll tell you how it all came about because I was at a show and exhibition Marketing Show. And because I entered the influencer marketing specs, I just thought the company organisation was called Kogan page. They had a whole load of business, yes, on their span. And I asked the lady on the counters if you've got a book on influencer marketing, and she said, yeah, no, I haven't. So that's a bit weird. You're a business publication company. You've got social media at no books, influencer marketing. And bear in mind, it's fairly new into the industry, per se, then I was building up some connections. So I thought, you know, what be great if I wrote one. And so I I basically pitched the idea to Kogan page, and, and they, they loved it, they invited me in and I'm thinking, What the hell am I doing? You know, I mean, no idea about writing a book. Anyway, it's a couple Long story short, I got this publishing contract to write a book. And then of course, we went, it took me quite a while, as you can imagine, and having working with a publisher means that you have somebody on your coattails all the time. But they also helping you and making sure that you, you get it right, I think one of my greatest learnings was realising that actually, this book is about a curation of lots and lots of case studies, lots of other thought leaders in the space, which is fundamental, by the way to influence you know, you'll never really make everything on your own. You need people, you need your circle of influence. And in a way, I started the whole process with the book, you know. And of course, when it comes down to promote it, I've got all of these people in the book that were happily saying, This is great gone, you know, well done. Let me share it to my audience. And of course, bingo, you know, yeah, for this. So the online book launch was something else I have to say I was, we had 106 people on Zoom two that I've now done. Subsequently, I've done two more book launches. And as a host for other people. Which I which I've loved. And we made it entertaining. We read it fun, lively, even the leaked in post on the third of March. Can you imagine how important it was for me to get that right? You know, can you imagine? Yeah, I've done a LinkedIn post and it is dribbled out and no, sorry. So all my tactics to get and we managed to get to sort of 16,000 views, 209 comments. And of course, that was also because we tagged a lot of the people that were in the book as well. And we got lots of comments. I asked a few people to share it on the WhatsApp group. So it was a huge, they're really hard to get.

Ian Truscott  27:54  
Congratulations. And from what I understand, having talked to a few authors on the show, and actually, I know a couple of people who've written for Kogan page, and really good experience working with that particular publisher. But also, it's not writing the book that I mean, that's a lot of effort, but it's promoting the book.

Unknown Speaker  28:11  
One additional thing that I think is really fascinating here is it's going to be translated, it's already been translated and published in Brazil. And so on the 15th of March, I'm going I'm being flown over by the publisher to do a week long book tour in Brazil. And they will and I want to make it a best seller over there, which is insane, isn't it really. But I think it's brilliant. It's such a big audience. I mean, Brazil is the is the third biggest country for influencer marketing, and we don't have competition. So I'm hoping and they're actually going to make a documentary with me as well, which is fantastic. It's

Ian Truscott  28:50  
well congratulations. And I mean, it's testament to the fact that mark, influencer marketing is all a buzz at the moment and hope you don't mind me mentioning another book or another author, but I chatted to Jason falls author of influence a couple of episodes ago over the holidays. And he referred to the duck face V sign crowd, which is somewhat tarnished the term has now I mean, when people think about influencer marketing, they're thinking about those kids. But how do you define a good influencer marketing?

Unknown Speaker  29:16  
Well, it's an interesting it's an interesting question, something I've been asked a lot and really, let's not kid ourselves. Influencer marketing isn't new. It's like emperor's new clothing with a new term. It's fundamentally word of mouth marketing. That's really what it is. It's the ability to promote a product or service through an individual and often through thought leadership opinion, or basically content creation and in and that's how I really describe it. It's, it's the same it's not over complicated, but what you what is important is that you find the right person that resonates with your audience, that can that can that can promote, sell, or advocate for you. And when done well, influencer marketing can generate 11 times greater ROI than almost any other form of media. And particularly for those those individuals that work on Ambassador programmes. I mean, you have you have now you have now organisations that have built their entire marketing strategy on influencer marketing, you know, like boohoo a sauce, you know, pretty little thing, particularly in the fashion world. But many, many gaming brands and I interviewed somebody on my podcast as a while ago, when they launched a new EA games, I'm sure you're aware of them huge global brand. And when they launched one of their brands, they had 250,000 people, you know, come online to the, to the reveal of this new game. And in 24 hours, it got 2 billion downloads or something crazy, and they used 60. That's all 60 influencer gamers.

Ian Truscott  30:50  
Wow. And but you also in the discussion we had before the show, you were talking about how sometimes influence and it is used to shape products and create products

Unknown Speaker  30:58  
100%. So there's a there's an organisation called mg power, actually an agency and they use them for a product called pure cane, which is a sugar sweetener, what they did in Brazil, they invited a number of big influences to a hotel for three days, I think it was. And what they wanted to do is recreate this new this new product. And bearing in mind, sometimes products are different in different countries. So you'll find that what works in the United States may not have a completely a completely different audience, maybe in South America, so. So basically, what the content creators did was to reach out to their audiences while they were at the hotel, what do you think of this product? What do you think of that design? So they were they were almost curating this, this strategy on the fly, but not just with three or four influences, but with their entire audience base. So you can imagine when the product actually came to be released, You've almost got a ready made excitable audience. We've been involved in this. We've, we were actually right behind you.

Ian Truscott  32:07  
Yeah, no, I love that. And I think, um, Joe Pulizzi, who wrote content, Inc, talks about the same thing is that when you create something, people are going to start giving you feedback. And that's what you need to listen to in terms of shaping your product. And I think that's really,

Unknown Speaker  32:21  
what's really great about this, when you think of a media, where would where would a celebrity, where would an individual, where would a brand get real time feedback, you go and watch something on TV, and you think, Oh, I hate this TV advert or switching over. I hate it. What I really hate is this, but they're not listening to that they can't see that because they're detached of it. Whereas actually, you've got real time feedback, good, bad, indifferent. You've got ideas coming. I mean, I've interviewed content question content creators, and they've, they've actually said, Oh, we love what you're wearing Josi. But it'd be great if you could also have a look at this type of product or that type of product. So some of these fashion influencers then go out and hunt for products like that, so that they can bring those in into the internet stories or reels or, or posts.

Ian Truscott  33:09  
Yeah. But aside from the influencer marketing thing, and what we as marketers or brands need to do with influences. When we were chatting in preparation for the show, we chatted about the fact you look at both sides of influencer marketing, in terms of you know, as CMOs and senior marketers, particularly I mean, that's who my audience is for the podcast. So just to focus on that. There's a view that we need to cultivate a personal brand to be influencers. And you know, nowadays, it's part of our value to the market isn't it is our personal brand. So, so you run a programme about that. Tell us a bit about

Unknown Speaker  33:48  
that? Yeah. Well, I mean, and I'm passionate about that. And I guess what, he's probably living proof of somebody that literally entered a market that I was completely unfamiliar with. And, and I go through a process. So you know, I always surround my, with myself with, with with, with my sort of circle of influence. If I want to find out about an industry, I'll often go to a trade association, funny enough, or I'll go to a community and I'll find the heads of those groups. But yeah, now I run a programme she's over sort of three months on Zoom. It's a one, it's a one to one support, coaching, but it's very, very focused on helping individuals become becoming more influential. And I go through a process, which is, the most important thing of all is before you decide what type of content you should be doing, you should start to look at who else is targeting the same sectors use the same old principles of marketing, isn't it? Do we apply the rules when promoting products? Why would we not apply the same rule as ourselves? So for example, you know what I'd be saying to somebody doing this simple exercise, and that is get an Excel spreadsheet Have a look at 10 other individuals that you believe are either, you know, somewhat similar to you, and have a look at their last 10 posts. And let's just say you do this on LinkedIn, but you could do it on Twitter, or Instagram or any of them and have a look at the the what type of posts that they've put out, is it? Is it a post a video? Is it stat, whatever type of thing it is, and then then observe what comments and level of engagement they've had back. So can you imagine seeing this on an Excel spreadsheet, You've almost got them some amazing attributes, which allow you to put this through almost like a washing machine of great content. And that's the first thing I ask people to do is to have a look at where we are before, before we even start the race. Think about this, as you're going to start the marathon, you wouldn't just go the marathon and go go straight off into the sunset. Oh, yeah, I think my audience would want this. Do not think anything. You know, it's all about doing what you know that the best influencers are content creators are all over their insights. They know what content works, they know what time it works. And they build up to what I call a weekly moment. Everybody should have a weekly moment. Adult routine, that's what you do on a regular basis. So you got Sorry.

Ian Truscott  36:27  
Yeah. So again, I mean, I refer to Joe Pulizzi. Earlier, I mean, that's the same sort of thing that the content marketing crowd talks about, isn't it that you need to commit and show up on a regular basis so that your audience know where they're going to find your weapon.

Unknown Speaker  36:37  
So mine, for example, I have an influencer marketing roundtable, every single Wednesday on zoom at 830 to 930. I share loads of tips, but also it's half an hour of content than half an hour of conversation. And it absolutely works. We have no more than about 20 people sometimes 15 or so it's it's a very well rehearsed sort of formula. People can duck in and duck out when sometimes they come for one and not the other, and they meet people. But what what, but I am almost becoming influential not just because of what I'm dispensing, because I'm seen as the person that that's the go to. So you said a few minutes ago didn't hear about, we need to be more influential. And some people don't like the term influencer, they don't want to be they don't want to be the selfie crowd and stuff like that. They don't need to be right. You don't need to be you can be that expert. You know, one of my podcasts that I know you've listened to where we spoke to the head of employee advocacy, Ryan bars, talks about the IBM has, and these are employees his influences. And they don't want to be called influences. They do not want to be called. But what they do want to be is that they know their stuff they know and they want to be seen as experts in their field. And they're so to their level of authenticity and value to the IBM customers is huge.

Ian Truscott  38:05  
Yeah, and I really enjoyed that episode because being a b2b marketer myself, I think that kind of programme humanises the brand as well, I mean, isn't about just individual personal brands. And I think some organisations shy away from encouraging their executives to create personal brands for fear of losing them or for fear of distraction or whatever. But I think that it humanises your organisation because people get to know your people.

Unknown Speaker  38:30  
percent. I mean, I love it when somebody says we're hiring. And it's not come from the HR person, it's come from Yeah, regular guy that's on the, the sales floor production line or something, it's tells me they're good. This means that they're passionate about the company that they are from, and it's what we need great people in our organisation. And I think maybe the pandemic has had an impact on that. And to be honest, we've we become more human. And we want to, you know, when it comes to there's an interesting stat to share with you now amongst Gen Z's and millennials they tradition, they trust traditional advertising to the tune of just 1%. Wow, they will listen to their YouTube friends, they will listen to their content creators, their gaming friends, because they, they they have this amazing connection with their audience that oozes relatability, authenticity, entertainment value, all of those things. And that's why I was watching on TV just the other day. And they were saying, Do you watch mainstream TV anymore? And people? They said Netflix and Amazon, Netflix and Amazon and all YouTube, you know?

Ian Truscott  39:42  
Yeah, that's it. That was around the launch of BBC Three. I think that they're gonna take that from online to being the kids don't care. And I like what you're talking about there about the influence because, I mean, it sounds like you've listened to some of the conversations around our dinner table, right, which is because I've got an 18 year old is his chef You know, her worldview is formed by by what she learns on social not what she learns through mainstream media or from the advertising that she does not true.

Unknown Speaker  40:10  
That's true you see a little bit is the reason why the government used influencers during the pandemic for the first time because they you know, Dr. Alex, for example, ex lover now, it's significant influence so because he loses trust, but also the the younger generation will look up to him because they they don't they they're a bit anti establishment in many ways. Yes. So yeah. So how does the How does something like the government get through? Or how do you know governing bodies get through their message when you've got people that are literally listening to the radio at the same time was watching the TV and yet they will be all over Tik Tok. So that's when brands are putting millions into Tik Tok.

Ian Truscott  40:52  
You know, I want to say, just to circle back to something we just mentioned. So we've mentioned your books or tick that off. But also and your podcast and the global Influencer Marketing podcast. Tell us a little bit better. It's also on the Marketing Podcast Network. Same as us. You hear a lot about that now that people listen for this. Yeah. What inspired you to start your podcast? And how's that experience?

Unknown Speaker  41:14  
It's been great experience, actually. And I mean, like you, I just love people. I love talking to people. I love listening to their stories. It's a natural place for me to be and yeah, I've had so much fun with it met some amazing people, amazing brands. I didn't know how it was going to go. I mean, you do hear sometimes people think oh, my goodness, you know, I've started this podcast, it's now it's a real ball like to keep doing. I mean, yeah, we only we publish every two weeks. And I probably about five or six weeks out, I have moved a couple of platforms. We're now the MPM what have been on anchor and Buzzsprout. A big problem, of course, is that the audience data doesn't travel, which is a bit of a bummer. But, you know, it's professionally produced, I think that's made a big difference. And as I say, my my producer is a radio DJ, which I think in, in the early days, actually, when I first started, I actually recorded in a proper radio studio, he coached me about, you know, the language, how to interview really well how to script for certain things, and emphasis on certain words. So that was really helpful. Actually, we've become really good friends.

Ian Truscott  42:26  
Yeah, no, I can imagine. I mean, I, I just started experimenting. And I think the first five episodes aren't published anymore, because I was talking into the wrong end of the microphone, I think so shit. But I am I've since interviewed all the same people over again. So they're, they're much better quality. But I think that you owe it to the listener to make as much effort as you can in the production, right? Because it really makes it if you're a podcast listener, you really notice those differences don't

Unknown Speaker  42:52  
Yeah, and I know that I mean, I there have been some imperfections, I won't lie. And that's sometimes because of, you know, you when you're talking to a guest, you can say that you can ask them to do all the right things. But, you know, it's difficult enough sometimes to get there. And then yeah, the the audio isn't perfect. But you know, it's, and I know, that's an issue. But I think as well, I started when I recorded it was there, there was like 50 odd minutes. But what hasn't changed is I've dropped that down significantly to sort of 20 minutes, half an hour maximum. One thing that I'm really excited about is I've got my first sort of major sponsorship from the influence. So we've I interviewed five fashion influencers, all with the same theme actually influences the new retailers, and they've all got amazing stories behind them. But what we're going to do is we're going to drop one of them as a special limited edition series. So it's, it's not, it's outside of every two weeks. Drop one of them during London Fashion Week, one day. So we think timing of distribution is Yes. As the creation of the content.

Ian Truscott  44:03  
Yes. And all of the things you just said, I'm not doing so minds, minds produced by an amateur that'd be me. I publish on a Saturday, which is the day everybody tells you you shouldn't publish. But the one thing I do agree with, absolutely. I mean, it's not I don't disagree, I know I'm doing the wrong things. But is the is people start these things like podcasts or blogs, right? And they don't realise that the commitment that it is going to be and you and I mean, brands do this as well. Companies do this, where they try and kick off this new initiative. And if they don't see anything in the first three months, they're like, I'm gonna stop you then they don't get the buzz out of it.

Unknown Speaker  44:36  
And the traction. I mean, what what I tell you is happened is obviously now I've got a sponsorship package as well. But increasingly what it's done is it's, you know, people see my name and what I stand for everywhere they see my book, they see my podcast, they see what I'm doing. And so one of the most important things about being influential is to is to be visible online in a very crowded market. You know, yeah, absolutely right about the fact that people trust, and even if they've not met me, they may well have heard about me or they, you know, I'd hope it was the right way. Because the brand is what Sony says about you when you're not in the room. Yeah,

Ian Truscott  45:15  
yeah, that's true. That's true. But Jason was kind enough to call me the Rockstar cmo guy. He's big. Alright, so coming Come to our last question as we're rapidly running out of time. We have a regular feature in the Rockstar cmo podcast called the Rockstar cmo swim pool in tribute to all the rockstars that threw things in hotels spoonfuls. By the way, I had to explain that to a young guest ad because I've never heard of that. And but it's our portal to Marty hell for overhyped trends, Bs and snake oil from this marketing industry, we love what would you like to see chapped into our rockstar? Cmo? Simple? Oh, my

Unknown Speaker  45:54  
goodness. What would I like? The equivalent of that TV show, wasn't it? Yeah, room one. room 101 Room?

Ian Truscott  46:03  
Yeah, I think they are completely stolen from there.

Unknown Speaker  46:06  
Yeah, you're right. Things I don't like Yeah. What really gets to me? I'm just trying to think actually, I should have prepared this.

Ian Truscott  46:16  
It's always the one that catches the guests out. Is there anything is there something about influencer marketing that you see and you just cringe and you just hate it? And it's it tarnishes the thing that you're passionate about?

Unknown Speaker  46:26  
Well, I mean, yeah. Okay. So I think I think to be fair, what I what I don't like is is an over an over self orientated over filtered over curated image because that is what's damaging. Look at me having said what I said, what really got my goat actually was, was was during Eric it was it was what I called the Dubai influencer with when we were all suffering in lockdown. And let's be honest, we all were. And you had pictures of people influences there, you know, say on our, I'm not getting my normal holiday intake, you know, some of those people were slammed, and quite rightly so. Because, you know, if you think about it, you know, I think if you're influential and you're, you know, people looking up to you, a lot of particularly women, a lot of girls are looking up to, you know, they see their influences as I because I want to be like that. And I think I don't like that. I mean, I'm a great believer in do do to others what you would do unto yourself is Be Kind Be courteous, be be supportive, be there turn up. And so I don't like it when people lack empathy is probably the thing I would as if you could throw the lack empathy is realising you know, you may have got 4 million followers, but you it didn't one day and never forget the people that helped you on the way up because guess what, they remember you all the way on your way down.

Ian Truscott  48:06  
I love it. I love it. What a lovely note to finish on. So we'll check the the influences without empathy into the info. And and when people spin the dial on the interwebs Gordon where they're gonna find this.

Unknown Speaker  48:20  
So you can head over to my website, which is Gordon glennister.com influence level podcast is on Spotify. And if you want to look at influencer marketing strategy, my book it's on Amazon and other leading bookstores, but it's been a pleasure talking to you today. Thank you.

Ian Truscott  48:35  
Thanks. Thanks, go and I will include all those links in the show notes. Thanks me, and I'll speak to you soon.

Thank you, Gordon, I really enjoyed our chat and interesting take on influencer marketing and being an influencer. And I will of course include all of the links to Gordon his podcast and his book in the show notes that you can find on Rockstar cmo.fm right time to wind down for the week, and were better than the Rockstar cmo virtual bar and join my friend and content marketing guru, the chief troublemaker at content advisory Robert Rose to be transported away with a cocktail and a marketing thought. Good evening robot. What are you drinking?

Robert Rose  49:36  
Ah, hello, my friend and welcome to the bar. It is time for the weekend. Isn't it? It's a it's yeah, it's nice. It's nice to be sort of kicked back and just to chat about things. Well, okay, so in the bar this week we have so it's hot here it is in which is weird. It's it's a very weird Cuz usually in Southern California, we get, you know, it gets, you know, it's not it's temperate here, of course this the reason we live here, but it has been hot this week. And so it's felt a little bit like summer. And so I have on the docket for us tonight, a what we're calling basically a tequila Mohito. And I haven't made one of these in a long time. And so I thought it would be a perfect way for us to cool off in the heat and enjoy something maybe poolside or something like that. And it's ostensibly it the same as you might expect a Mohito to be fresh mint, of course, cracked, a little bit of lime, and you know, squeezed into a glass or, or a pitcher. In this case, maybe we'll do a pitcher. And then of course, ice and then now here's the most important part, because normally you would put white rum into a Mohito. But what we're going to use is a silver or a Blonko. Tequila. And, and usually I'm not too much of a fan of Blanco tequila, but this particular drink calls for that for sure, because you need that sort of very light, light taste. And you pull all that together, shake it up and pour it over ice with the crushed mint and the lime wedges and you're you're talking very refreshing drink on a hot day.

Ian Truscott  51:29  
That sounds delicious. That sounds delicious. Well, using the limited resources of my desktop. Ah, I should attempt to replicate that very same cocktail

Robert Rose  51:39  
for what that's fantastic.

Ian Truscott  51:41  
And I have a very light English tequila called Hendrick's gin surprised,

Robert Rose  51:51  
as as we often say, the most English of tequila. Yes, yeah. But

Ian Truscott  51:55  
before I get going with that, and by the way, you'll notice I'm not using the shaker and everything because I felt that I felt that I was testing the listeners patience with me making a martini. So if I put a bit of crikey, I've put some gin in there with some ice. And what was this mob as a mixer that you were using?

Robert Rose  52:16  
We were basically tequila and then really no mixer other than the lime juice itself and, and then the mint leaves. Then there there's no I mean, the the traditional Mohito calls for a little sugar. But again, as I want to say on this show anyway, I don't really do sugar in cocktail. So

Ian Truscott  52:37  
okay, well, as its, as it showed one on 1101. I've done a bit of a reset with my desktop. And I seeing the return of very similar ingredients muddled together by the good people at fever tree. And they've called it cucumber tonic water. So

Robert Rose  52:55  
water Yes. Yes. About the closest thing to mint leaves that you're going to find probably in the UK right about now. All right,

Ian Truscott  53:03  
I'm going to get this set. Oh, that is refreshing. Oh, but I see what you mean. And what are we calling

Robert Rose  53:10  
that? We're calling that the tequila Mohito

Ian Truscott  53:14  
That's delicious. I could drink one of these every single week.

Robert Rose  53:18  
I suspect good. Yeah.

Ian Truscott  53:21  
So where and we forgot this last week. Where are we sipping these you mentioned bit by the pool anywhere specific.

Robert Rose  53:30  
You know, I there is a place that I have been looking at and this was funny. I was looking at this place while it was cold and rainy here and it's a place I've never been actually which is Rio de Janeiro. Oh and it felt like the right place to enjoy a tequila Mohito and especially a place that I've heard about and seen of course on you know photos and and television and whatnot, Copacabana beach which is just looks spectacular from the pictures and from the way that it's filmed. I have never been there but I think it would be a great place for us to go and stick our toes in the sand and drink mosquitoes

Ian Truscott  54:12  
I think we would fit right in with the beautiful people down there.

Robert Rose  54:15  
Yeah they are that is absolutely the truth Yeah.

Ian Truscott  54:21  
My my sister in law has been so I've heard tale of of down there it's it sounds absolutely beautiful. As you say Have you ever been to South America at all?

Robert Rose  54:28  
I'm not I have not been to South America at all full stop yeah I am and and have wanted to go for a long time and have never really found the excuse so

Ian Truscott  54:38  
I did well if there's anybody out there that needs content marketing experience down, down down that

Robert Rose  54:44  
wants to pay me to go to Rio de Janeiro Rio de Janeiro I'd beat me up for that or Peru quite frankly, I'm a big fan of Peru as well.

Ian Truscott  54:53  
Hmm no sound splendid. So, somebody has a we've we cabana beach drinking these very fine tequila heaters. And we're cooling down. What is the conversation returned to this week?

Robert Rose  55:09  
Well, I think you'll be shocked that we'll talk a little about content strategy. I mean, I know that's such an odd topic for us to talk about, you know, here, this is something I was thinking of the other day as well with, you know, where I live, I live. So I live in LA or Hollywood, if you want to, if you want to call it that. And there is an old trope around Hollywood, you know, and you'll even see it on bumper stickers on cars and T shirts, that sort of thing, which is, you know, but what I really want to do is direct and, and it basically refers to actors and musicians and writers, and basically, those that you know, that that work on films, because interestingly, and this is why I was actually looking at this, ironically, up until, arguably the last couple of years, film is was sort of the, you know, the feature film was sort of the highest pinnacle of any career. And the director of feature films were the most celebrated right, you know, it's, it's why best director is the second to last behind best picture in the Oscars. And, you know, the director is really it right. So, you know, celebrated film directors are sort of the tours are considered the artist. And, and so the interesting thing, though, is that it's a very ironic thing that the director's role is probably the furthest from actually direct creation of any of the content. And, you know, all their job is to do you know, they don't write, they don't, you know, act, they don't play the music, they don't edit the film, they don't even point a camera in most cases. Now, I know there are directors that do double duty here, but But yeah, ostensibly, the directors role on a film is to direct the individual artists, so that it comes out with a consistent, engaging, wonderful voice. And the best directors do that task so well, that they basically pull the individual artists voice out, and mash it all together into their own style, which is a fascinating talent, if you really think about it. And that really rang true to me for what a true content strategy is. It is a it is at the end of the day, like film, a director's medium, a b2b or b2c content strategy for a brand is a director's medium. And the reason for that. And the reason I say that is because I was talking with this client, and they were talking about scalability. And, you know, as as usual, the the, you know, the complaint about scalability is, hey, we're we want to be more strategic as a function, content marketing or content strategy in our business. But how do we become more strategic without adding more headcount? You know, how can we take on more content because it feels like this never ending treadmill. And I started to write this thing down, which I've now started to call Roberts law of content, which is, you, you never will write the Robert, my Roberts law of content is basically the need for content expands in direct proportion to the number of resources allocated to it. And, you know, in other words, it doesn't matter how big your content team is, you'll always be behind in terms of the amount of content being demanded of you. And so very much like a director on a film, the real functional strategy of content in a business is not to just sort of try and scale all the individual artists to the point where you can meet that demand. It is rather about creating a team whose function is like a movie director, where it is about guiding, shaping and developing everyone at the edges of the business, their talent, so that they can actually create the content at scale. In other words, it's about pulling out the individual talents of the salespeople, the customer service people, the CEO, the so that all the content that's getting created at every pardon, in every corner of the business is in that consistent, engaging style to do that. And so, at the end, my advice to my client there was to say, Hey, listen, what you should do is basically get all your staff T shirts that basically say, but what I really want to do is direct

Ian Truscott  59:35  
I love that and you're absolutely right. I mean, and also the authentic voice other other people outside the marketing team are actually often the people that are far more interesting to talk to for your for your customer review audience, aren't they?

Robert Rose  59:49  
Yeah, that's right. It is it is. You know, the that's where it really the magic happens right when you see a great content strategist. When the business itself has a style, right? Yeah, in other words, you know, it's not. And it's easy. And we've talked about this on the show before, where you look at different outputs from different parts of the business. And, you know, the thought leadership is very, you know, conservative and stayed in, you know, and it's very, you know, straightforward. And by the book, and, you know, here you go, and it's kind of boring and doesn't really have a distinctive point of view. But then you look at some of the marketing stuff, and it's playful and fun, and it's got cartoon characters, and you know, those two things don't really go together very well. Yeah, and the greatest ones, the the ones where the the, the really, you know, that the magic happens is when you look at the entirety of the journey, and everything sort of matches to a great style, a unique voice, it's engaging experiences are connected with one another. And I think the only way you can really get there is if you actually empower all of those little corners of the business to create stuff. But you do it in a way where each one of them is adhering to, you know, and by the way, willingly and trustingly at hearing, not just you know, because it's you know, they have to check a box, or that there's brand police or whatever. But they're hearing willingly, interestingly, to the voice that of the quote unquote, Director, which in the business cases, the content strategy team. Yeah,

Ian Truscott  1:01:28  
but isn't that I think it's really interesting, because doesn't that because typically, in my experience, a content team is a, they have a background in writing. Some of them are a little introverted, they're creators. This is a different skill set, isn't it being the director or being the editor being the curator, being the person that's going to light a fire under somebody else to do the writing? Does that change the the sort of skill set you need within your content team, then?

Robert Rose  1:01:58  
Well, it can, right? I mean, because again, like a director, right, you know, you might have you in any one individual business, you might have the writer, director, or the actor, director, or the writer director, you know, those kinds of double duty talents that you need in order to make a great movie. And in order to make a great content strategy, your content team may more or less, create actual content, right? I know some content strategy teams that create zero content, their whole, you know, their whole remit is basically just to ensure that the standards, playbooks guidelines, etc, that are being done are done so in a way that enables everybody else to create content, and their only job is to just ensure the great flow and the great consistency of content that's rare, where it's zero content being created. But to your point, in some cases, it does change fundamentally what you do as a content strategy team, because in many ways, what you're having to sort of evolve into is not just a team of, you know, editors, or a team of journalists or a team of writers, you have to start to understand how do you enable someone else to become a writer or a journalist, you know, it's sort of bringing your expertise to bear in and helping the organisation develop its own skills to be able to do that. So yeah, it does change it, because it goes from being sort of individual contributor to teacher.

Ian Truscott  1:03:28  
Hmm. But also to your point about scale, maybe, you know, when when, when the organisation is smaller, then then that, then you start off with that typical content type of team, but as it grows, you grow by it by with directors, rather than more creators. Is that, um, yes, yeah, yes.

Robert Rose  1:03:47  
In there, you know, obviously, not a not a binary choice there, right. And your mileage may vary on that strategy. But the, the overall arching goal is what you just said, right, which is, as you start scaling into the business, you know, the idea is, is that you become an enabling organisation, you know, a movie director, as you as it were, rather than a, you know, a single, you know, function, right? Otherwise, you end up where my friend that my client ended up, which is, you know, everybody recognise them. You know, everybody saw that, oh, that's the content team. You know, he good words are good pictures. That's where you go, right. Yeah. And that's it. That's all they were. So they were never considered strategic. And they were never considered, you know, even though they were considered important. They were never considered strategic because it was simply, ah, if you need something written well, or you need something designed, well, that's you go to that content studio, quote, unquote. And instead, if we really want to be strategic as a leading function in the business, our overarching goal needs to be enablement, not just service.

Ian Truscott  1:04:56  
And yeah, and that's it. And, I mean, obviously, I mean, you know, I've seen that tension as well in organisations I've worked in, but But I also think that sometimes you need to reframe that as is because when people talk about becoming strategic, what's the point of becoming strategic? Right? So I think we need to articulate? Well, look, if we became more strategic, we could scale the content content, the content will actually improve in relevance, because rather than marketers writing, it's being written by people who understand this topic, and try and frame the conversation like that. Have you seen any? You know, do you see what I mean? It's like, people seem to be executive seem to have become a bit blind to the idea of, you know, it needs to become more strategic. Well, do we need to express better? How and why does that? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah,

Robert Rose  1:05:47  
I think that's I think that's, you know, you know, it's a little bit like asking why accounting needs to be strategic, or why the legal, Dziedzic or why, you know, marketing or sales needs to be strategic, right. At the end of the day, it's like, it's sort of a self thing. It's like, you know, if you're going to do something, why not do it? Well, right. Yeah. You know, but I, but yeah, I mean, it's it. And in some cases, I might argue, you know, be pretty rare, I suspect, but in some cases, it may not need to be right. In other words, if content marketing, or editorial or thought leadership, or whatever is going to be and continue to be a tiny piece of your portfolio. And you're a small company where, you know, you've got really talented people who can create great things, you know, yeah, maybe it maybe it is just a haphazard sort of thing. And it doesn't become a sort of, it doesn't need to become a strategic function in your particular business. I think that's exceedingly rare these days with as many channels as we have, and as many assets as we need to produce. And, as you know, the need for content, you know, exponentially rises. And in terms of differentiating, but, you know, there I'm sure there are examples of that out there. Where it Yeah, we don't need it to be strategic adjusted, it's okay to be, you know, a, you know, a function in the business.

Ian Truscott  1:07:13  
Yeah, no, it's really interesting. And I think that we come come to this topic quite often don't worry about the fact that content teams need to figure out a way to move from being that content vending machine of, yeah, if you want some copy, just give those guys a shout. It doesn't really matter what it is right. To, to becoming a strategic part of the storytelling of the brand. I think that's very important. Thank you very much. And where can we find thoughts like this written up in some kind of format?

Robert Rose  1:07:42  
Well? I'm sure there are many places you might.

Ian Truscott  1:07:53  
But if you with directing,

Robert Rose  1:07:55  
yes, not the least of which is our little movie production on the web, which of course, is content advisory? dotnet.

Ian Truscott  1:08:02  
Fantastic. And when people spin the dial on the interwebs Well, that's where they're gonna find you.

Robert Rose  1:08:06  
Oh, wow. All the places, you know, in Twitter, all those places podcasting. Yeah, um, there we have it. Do a search. We haven't.

Ian Truscott  1:08:17  
We haven't. We haven't. We haven't found you on on Tik Tok yet,

Robert Rose  1:08:21  
though. No, we have not. We have not. I have been a little busy. A little cobblers kids. They're you know, busy. I have not gotten to my tick tock videos yet. Yeah. But I do actually plan to at some point.

Ian Truscott  1:08:36  
Splendid. Well, I noticed I heard you on a podcast the other day by by somebody I'd interviewed on this show Eric full. I thought that was a great good show. I'll include a link to that in the show notes as well, where you're talking about content that was that was good. And of course, the name of his podcast just slipped out of my head as I adhoc decided to plug something, but I'll include a link to it in the show notes. I thought that was great as well love it. Well, thanks very much. And we'll see you in the barn. You will thank you love it. Our little sprinkle of Hollywood, who I heard this described this week as the likeable Mark Ritson. So that's a wrap on episode 101 and the Rockstar cmo effing RC podcast thank you for dropping a dime into your podcasting jukebox, selecting our track and jiving along with us. I've been your host Ian Truscott. Thanks again to Jeff Borden and Robert for sharing their insight. Please follow them say hello and check out all the links we discussed in the show notes which you can find on your favourite podcast app or Rockstar cmo.fm where you can also find all our previous episodes. So does the world need another effing Marketing podcast? Let me know we are Rockstar cmo on LinkedIn or Twitter. And please drop a rating or review in your favourite Get podcast app so other people can find us or just keep listening. I'm glad you're here. Next week, Jeff and I will kick off a new series discussing the fundamentals of marketing. I chat with Chris Lynch, CMO of mine Tico. And Robert will be back in the Rockstar cmo virtual bar. Until then, have a great week. And I hope you'll again join us here next week on Rockstar cmo

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